0:10 Today on Must Play, we cover one of Arizona's most historic golf courses. We're talking about the Estates course at the Arizona Biltmore Golf Club in Phoenix, AZ I'm Sean Massey, and with me, as always, as TJ Van Gutten. And our guest this week is Alex Anderson, founder of Babes Golf, an organization that brings women of all skill levels together to enjoy the game of golf and form meaningful connections. 0:29 Alex, welcome to the pod. Thank you. I appreciate you joining us today. I know we're going to get into Babe golf a little bit, but I'd love to learn a little bit more about you. How'd you first get into golf? What's your relationship to the game? How's that evolved over the years? Yeah, I can't believe it's actually almost been 10 years since I started golfing. 0:48 I just had to update that on my bio in our website because it said five years. So time has flown by. I was originally introduced to the game when I worked at a golf course in Hollister, CA and I had 0 interest in the game and it wasn't until after that job I had taken taken a friend out to play the golf course and it was like my first time and I fell in love with it and wish that I had started sooner. 1:21 So my golf journey started then and I really got the bug and played for about a year just trying to learn how to swing the Golf Club and going out and just having fun. And probably it was about a year in is when I just wanted more friends to play with and none of my friends played. 1:43 I didn't know anyone that played. So I started convincing my girlfriends to start coming out to the range with me 'cause I didn't want to go by myself. So that's kind of how Babes Golf got created was just all these women wanted a place to come and be felt, feel welcomed. 2:04 And I, I, I felt the same way. They felt we didn't want to go to the range alone. And I really saw a missing piece in golf. And that was just where can people start? 2:19 Where is a good introduction and I decided to create that with Babes Golf. Maybe that's a good transition to Babes Golf a little bit. So I was curious because we talked to Bernadette, she gave us some good background on how it all started and what those events look like. But I never really got an understanding of what like a typical first experience would look like for someone that wanted to join. 2:40 What's that look like for someone who might be newer to golf or just wants to kind of join one of your events? Yeah, so I always tell girls to come check us out and the first event I would love for them to try is a range meet up. And our range meet ups are just like a range hang. 2:56 You come, you can hit balls if you want. If you don't want to, you don't have to. I know it's really intimidating, especially if you're a newer golfer, but for me, I just want ladies to meet other women that are in their same shoes and start feeling comfortable. And I think a lot times that once we make some friends, friends, we start to feel more comfortable about putting ourselves out there more. 3:18 So that's why I always say range meet ups are the perfect first event. And from there, if you're a newer golfer, I say play nine holes, get out there. We have so many girls that are supportive and we're exactly where you were in your journey at one point. 3:36 So everyone's very supportive and we'll help you out and guide you along those nine holes. But yeah, I would definitely try to get out and play Loma Club. And I always say like Loma Santa Fe Executive course, I always recommend them getting out and playing as much as they can. 3:55 That's the course we were trying to think of TJ when we were talking about a short course over by Solana Beach and Sunita's area. I thought we, I thought we did figure it out. Oh, I don't remember if we did or not. I think somebody. I've never, I've never played there. I, that's one of my favorite courses in San Diego and they when I live there, they have a member, a membership and it's $29.00 a month. 4:22 And if you play after 2:00 during the week, it's $7.00 and it includes a drink. That's that's what it was when I was there and I was. Going to say there's no way that is still a thing here in San Diego. There's I mean. 4:38 It's probably $29.00 to play now like. I know, I know. It was such a great deal. So I'd get out two or three times a week and just go play because you can play the 18 holes in two hours. Yeah. So it's a great practice course and it's fun and walkable. 4:57 Speaking of walkable fun courses, maybe we transition over to the estates course of the Biltmore. I know you 2 got to play together recently. I kind of want to talk about first impressions, but TJ, was this your first time playing there when you went? Outside wasn't my first time playing at the Biltmore. 5:14 Very infamously in my head. I got my first ever photo radar ticket in Scottsdale playing the Biltmore about 15 years ago. If anyone remembers old Scottsdale on it might even be technically Paradise Valley but on Lincoln Rd. It was like one of the only first photo radars that there was in the city. 5:33 And I woke up late for a tee time 1 morning and I was not playing in states. I was playing the Lynx course but very famously had to try and make this tee time and sure as heck thought I saw it. And then a month later or a few weeks later that that photo radar ticket showed up. 5:49 But my knowledge of everything that we are going to cover today was very not there. I was like I really need to go back and replay this. I'm sure everything has changed. I honestly, I think I played in 2010, 2009 maybe. 6:05 So it's been 1515 years. So I was like, if we're going to do this, I need to go back out and replay it. And then we played the States course, which is that which I think used to be the Adobe course. Correct me if I'm wrong here. Yeah. We played, we played that day and yeah, it was, it was good to get a nice refresher and then they've obviously updated some things very recently that will play into their favour when we go to rank this course later on. 6:31 Yeah, but it's much different. Yeah. What'd you think of the course? I mean, having that much, I'm in between. Yeah. I mean it's, it's one of those courses where it feels like they maybe took all the acreage that was available to it and said, let's weave all the holes with inside this acreage. 6:49 Kind of it kind of almost fits like inside the rectangle that it's planned upon and all the holes kind of back up or run parallel next to each other. So you can you can get away a little bit with with spraying the driver and you'll have another fairway next to it. 7:05 It's definitely link style, though, where or not link style. But there's definitely some some trickier green complexes to kind of try and balance out the fact that you can get away with letting the driver get get a little loose, You know, very Bandon esque. 7:20 You know, there's there are some hazards. There's still some desert out there, some rocks and dirt that you're going to need to hit out of if you don't make it to the other fairway. Thankfully I'm bad enough I made it over to the other fairways most of the time. So had a good day. Like honestly I I broke 100 that day for which for me playing a new course and breaking 100 that I know nothing about is usually the goal for me. 7:43 So I I had a good time. How about you, Alex? Yeah, it was fun. I I played of fun round two. I've been playing, I've been bringing Babes golf out to Biltmore for a while now because it is so like friendly and then also like you can hit your driver left or right and you're probably just going to be in another fairway. 8:04 But I feel like it's pretty wide open versus the links course where I know the girls always prefer a state silver links just because there's a lot, there's water on links and it's a little bit more narrow. But I really, I really like the states. 8:21 They move some holes around and it looks good. I, we, I felt, I don't remember what I scored that day, but I felt, oh, the, do you remember 18? That was the only one that. That's, that's what I was going to say was I, I, I I'll beep your horn for you. 8:39 I know you got a birdie on 18, but as we were waiting for your birdie, PO, the guy behind us must have ripped A3 wood like 270 yards and and drove the green on clearly his second shot. And he like came up and like profusely apologized, which is always the way to do it, right? 8:57 Like if you if you think that there's an odd chance that you might get there, be ready to, you know, drive up and apologize very quickly. I didn't even know he's like, I didn't even think I could get a ball up there. I had no idea, but I apologized and then. Yeah, he kind of stole my Thunder. He. Stole your birdie a little bit from you knowing that he did. 9:16 I was so excited because I I was 130 yards back and I hit my 11 wood on to the green and one of the cart guys is actually standing on 18 to to clean clubs. 9:31 And he, I couldn't see exactly where my ball went because we were kind of down and the hole was up higher. And he literally just went like this. And I'm like, Oh my gosh, I must have hit it really close. And I got up there and I was like, wow, OK. 9:48 And made the putt right. And made the putt. There you go, nice work. You know, I'm I'm a touch torn on the attendant waiting out by the green on 18. I can't tell if I really like it because it's somewhat of a time save where generally like when you if you pull the cart up to like the cart barn or wherever, you drop the cart off and then the guy starts cleaning your clubs and you really can't like pack your things into your bag after a round because the guy's standing there kind of cleaning all your clubs. 10:24 So then you're kind of just left waiting to clear out whatever you pulled out into the cart during the round. But then at the same time, the social pressure and anxiety of the guy is going to clean your clubs when you go to the green. Like there's no getting around it. 10:41 He's waiting out there. He's for sure going to clean your clubs when you go to the green. So then you have to come back and be like, yeah, I guess I now have to tip this kid, which like, you know, I don't mind. I I probably should clean my clubs more after a round. 10:58 I usually am like a day before the next time I play golf, giving like the deepest scrub to get, you know, 2 weeks old dirt out of my clubs. But I I don't know, I'm I'm indifferent. Sean, do you have any thoughts on this or Alex, you were there that day. You had it happen to you. How do you feel about it? I liked it. 11:14 I, I don't know, I, I thought it was cool that he was like there, but I didn't feel any pressure to like the problem I guess is like then you feel like you have to stop right on 18 and pull out cash and like do that when someone's coming back in. 11:29 So, but yeah, I mean, I guess it it, I think it's probably better left up at the clubhouse so you can get out of the next person's way. I'll also say he was probably a little too chatty knowing that, like he was really excited. 11:47 About my shot. He was really excited about your birdie. He very much was. So I, I, I can't take that away from him. But like, just knowing that like it's, it's a pace of play thing like where you got to go out on the green. We got to come back and then, you know, somebody else has got to filter in. 12:03 And if we're just standing off to the side of the green talk with the kid or rummaging through my bag to get a few bucks out of there, you. Know, yeah. It creates a much bigger issue if that happens. Yeah, I actually wouldn't have ever seen that before. That was like the first time I've ever experienced that. 12:19 And I was like, wow, this is different. There's one of the courses. That bring it up. Yeah, there's one other course in Scottsdale. It's Kierland. If you play Kierland and you play the Acacia or forget what the S 9 is called, but that one at 18, there's a guy waiting for you right there at the same spot. 12:36 I think it depends on who you play with. It's kind of like the personalities you play with. If there's someone who doesn't ever feel social pressure like that, that kind of like fuck it attitude in life, they don't care because they're like, I'm not tipping them in either way. So go ahead and clean my clubs. But but the people who feel the social pressure like TJ and I, I very much feel that too. 12:55 I'm like, well, you know, regardless of whether I was planning or not getting them cleaned, I'm doing it now. So I'm going to, I'm going to Venmo this guy or pull out some cash in my wallet. So it's a smart move for the, you know, club guys to basically. Do 100 percent, 100% don't. 13:11 I'm not faulting them. It's a great idea. I'm sure it yields so much more tips for them. Yeah, but I'm on the fence. Real quick, my first time here because I grew up out here. I played it a long time ago, like in middle school when it was Adobe Horse and it had a reputation even back then I remember of being a pretty flat piece of property that was pretty well known for what you guys already talked about in this episode, balls coming over from other holes. 13:40 And it was extremely popular with an older crowd. So it was like, you know, whatever stereotypical name you want to sub in for an old man and an old woman. But like they were always on your hole at at Adobe. So I remember like slower rounds because at any given point there was a ball from this hall and this hall that were both in your fairway and it was kind of overlooked for the Lynx course back in the 90s and 2000s, I remember Lynx course was kind of more of a if you were going to go book something and you told them you were playing Biltmore, you would get the qualifier question from someone that which is Lynx. 14:13 And if you said no, they were usually out. So it had that reputation, but I know with the redesign that happened in 23, which we'll talk about in history, they did a really good job of kind of bringing this course back to life. Yeah. So. 14:29 And I feel like public courses in in Arizona, like pace of play can get super slow, but I felt like we like everything went pretty smoothly. We weren't waiting too long on any holes so. That's good. Yeah, I feel like because it's not like a tube, it's not too challenging. 14:49 They also we'll talk about in the history, but they added 400 trees to the redesign and the trees were meant to kind of properly define the pass of the holes because in the old course there were some holes where people would go down the wrong hole. 15:07 So it's kind of like the greens from like the fairway. You couldn't tell some and in a couple cases which one you were going for. But TJ, do you have some before I dive into history? No, you're good. You're good. OK, there was a story that it reminded me of, but I digress. It's not that important. 15:24 All right. Before we get into the history, let's hear more about our sponsor for today's episode, Bird Darts. Today's episode of Must Play is sponsored by Bird Darts Premium Golf Tees. Nothing relaxes me more on the course than tear and open a box and RIP in a few bird darts with the boys. The 100% Bamboo golf Tees feature a clean design with marks to help you tee up your shots consistently. 15:44 So your only swing thought is worrying about the cart girl who's watching you tee off. You can also use bird darts without worrying about harming the environment. They're biodegradable and the packaging is made from recycled materials. Head over to their website birddarts.com and use code Fair wagers for 10% off today. Check out their new 4 packs they just dropped for you and all your boys. 16:02 All right, let's dive into the history of the Biltmore. How much of the history do you know Alex, about Biltmore? Like you might be more familiar maybe with the hotel in the course? Honestly, not really. I don't know much about the history at all. Oh OK, well I have a pretty short one here but hopefully it will enlighten everyone. 16:23 So we're going to start back in the 1920s. So at the end of the roaring 20s on February 23rd, 1929, the Arizona Biltmore Hotel opened in grand fashion. Over 600 invitations were sent out with the thought of only a few 100 attending. 16:41 But it seemed no one wanted to be left out, and the resort had to recreate the opening gala 3 days in a row to accommodate all 600 people. And the Arizona Biltmore had been designed to be a private retreat for some of the most influential powerhouses of the time, and the hotel's opulence kind of reflected that. 16:58 When it was originally built, the Biltmore actually had the second largest gold leaf ceiling in the world, trailing only behind the Taj Mahal, and over 33,000 lbs of copper were used in the rest of the roof. And the entire building was designed to look like Frank Lloyd Wright's aesthetic. 17:17 It was built by Chewing Gum magnate, which is quite a title, like a guess. Yeah. Do you want to take a guess? I mean, I would assume that with the Wrigley mansion being right there. Uh huh. Yeah. OK, William Wrigley Junior, the same guy who owned the Chicago Cubs, and the hotel quickly became an iconic destination for luxury and pampering in Phoenix. 17:41 And to add to the amenities and the experience, Wrigley embarked on a plan to develop a golf course for his guests. So we hired renowned architect William Bell to craft a worthy routing to complement the stay. And the result was the Adobe Course, a terrific Parkland beauty gently laid on the landscape and hosting golfers since its 1929 opening. 18:01 TJ for the fifth time. Who is William Bell? Torrey Pines man, I feel like, I feel like we only talk about like the same 3 course architects in Southern California and Arizona. But when you cover San Diego in Arizona at the Phoenix, it's like there's a lot of, you know, incest happening. 18:20 So yeah, he he's actually the designer of Torrey Pines, but his son actually was the architect because he died right before it was built. But but this William Bell, Billy Bell was also the architect of Balboa Riviera and a few other ones Bel Air. 18:36 So much of the layout though could be seen from the quaint clubhouse patio back then steps from the hotel with the backdrop of the mountains to the north and the South. The compact layout was dotted with subtle mounting, tree lined fairways, old school greens which were raised with front bunkers and the course was a perfect example of what you see is what you get as there was no hidden tricks and very little elevation change around the layout. 19:00 The fairways were relatively straight away with a few gently swinging dog legs providing a different feel and remarkably playable and walkable. This was a classic design which was a fine depth of golf the way it was used to be played. The Adobe course would host all kinds of celebrities throughout the decades, ranging from Frank Sinatra and Hollywood stars to foreign heads of state and US presidents and you would also find Marilyn Monroe sometimes on the patio. 19:23 She's got some photos here at the Biltmore. Almost equally as famous, though, were the post round functions held at the right bar or the patio next to the course which I just talked about, where, interestingly, a popular tequila cocktail was invented in the late 1930s. Does anyone want to guess what tequila cocktail was invented at the Biltmore Golf Course I. 19:41 Have a guess. I'm going to let Alex go first. Guess privilege. A Margarita. Not the Margarita, no. I'm going to, I'm going to take a wild guess and say that because it's Phoenix, it is citrus based, but it's a Paloma. No, it's not. It's the Tequila Sunrise. 19:58 Same oranges, citrus. Citrus still. Yeah. So yeah, that was invented in the 30s at the Biltmore. Eventually, the hotel would add a second course, this time designed by Bill Johnston, an Arizona Golf Hall of Famer who also designed Rancho Manana up in Cave Creek. 20:15 Johnston completed this new course, which would be called the Lynx Course, in 1978. A very different plane experience to the Adobe, The Lynx presented 2 distinctly different nines looping around the actual Adobe course and back to the clubhouse on the front. And then the back 9 was framed by a lot of beautiful homes and mature trees and featured a little bit more elevation change. 20:35 And for most of its nearly 100 year history, the club represented the pinnacle of Arizona resort and Country Club lifestyle. But over the years, many other courses would pop up around the Biltmore and throughout neighboring Scottsdale. This meant the Biltmore would start to see rounds slow down a little bit over the years as newer resorts were popping up. 20:52 The Adobe course was starting to show its age as well, and soon golfers would prefer the Lynx course over Adobe more often than not. So in March 2020, the Biltmore Hotel would undergo $150.00 million reservation renovation with plans to redo the Adobe course via partnership with JDM Partners, notably owned by Jerry Colangelo, former owner of the Phoenix Suns, Arizona Diamondbacks, the Phoenix Mercury and other Valley sports teams. 21:18 JDM would bring on Scottsdale resident and five time PGA Tour Champion Tom Lehman to redesign the course and then reintroduce it as the Estates Course in 2023. The all new Estates course features beautifully contoured fairways, new tea boxes, improved green complexes, new white sand bunkers and also they planted 400 new trees to add more visual appeal while helping better define the fairways in the plain corridors. 21:43 The estates course also undergone underwent increases in distance and new slope rating with whole layouts and routing very different from the predecessor. So the resort also renovated the Adobe Bar and Grill with indoor outdoor seating, multiple screens, fire pits, water features, a virtual golf lounge SIM, even a family friendly setting out looking the golf course and the views towards the ever expanding Phoenix skyline. 22:07 And so it's clear that the resort plans to keep making upgrades and investments into the hotel and the golf course. But I would argue this project was one of the better redesigns of a golf experience here in the valley. So swing by the estates course soon, enjoy a very gettable course with an epic post round scene and maybe even enjoy a tequila sunrise. 22:24 While you're at it, Well, well done, Sir. Thank you. I. Tequila Sunrise I. Know you should have ordered it. I wonder if that's on their menu in the Adobe grill. Yeah. I also wonder, Alex, you might know this was it. 22:42 I feel like it was something, I feel like they named it the Adobe Grill in honor of getting rid of the course name. You know what it was potentially called before. I don't and that would make sense. Then I'm like because I I knew it was called the new restaurant was Adobe Grill. 23:00 I didn't know that the old course was called Adobe, but that all makes sense now. I don't know if it had a name, I know there's the right bar in the hotel, but the bar, well, first of all, the Pro shop bar looked a lot different before the redesign. 23:16 It was a sad state of affairs to say the least. Yeah, it was really small if I remember, and you can get food to go and stuff. It was in a full restaurant like they have now. Well, they did. They had a little patio where you could get breakfast. Actually, I do remember you had like a little brunch patio thing, but it wasn't like anything close to what they have today. 23:35 Yeah, it's incredible now. Yeah, and thanks to Jerry Colangelo and the Biltmore for building this. Still mad at Jerry Colangelo that he stopped owning Phoenix teams, but we'll talk about. Yeah, not sports. OK with that. Let's get into the goods. 23:51 All the things that we like about the estates course. Alex, maybe you want to kick us off, Like, what are some highlights for you that you think people should know about this course? It's very, if you're a newer golfer, it's a great place to start and you can actually get out and play nine holes. 24:11 They normally will give you a nine hole rate if you go in the afternoon and I really enjoy that cause a lot of times they'll still give you a lot of golf courses, they'll still give you the 18 hole rate. So I'd definitely call and ask for a 9 hole rate if you just want to get that out there for that. I think another part of it is they've really turned it into a golf course where like the community can come and hang out and bring your kids or your, your, I think we, we see dogs out there too. 24:43 A lot of locals will come and just like sit out on the patio and they have fire pits and they've really turned it into something that's like Papago where it's very like family friendly. You can come and hang out, listen to live music and have drinks like you don't even need to come for the golf. 25:02 So that's what I really love about it. It's very welcoming to the community and I mean all around's a great spot. I really enjoyed the pro shop. They have great merch in there and that's not always easy to come by, but when you walk in there it makes you want to buy everything, so whoever's doing their merch is really good. 25:27 Do you like the logo? Yeah, I do. It's like, it's kind of like a butterfly bee almost with Biltmore. Yeah, yeah, I think it's a good logo. I think that just like the stuff that they carry is, you know, they they carry some really good stuff. 25:42 So, yeah, yeah. The actual brands they have in there are are very nice brands. The the pro shop itself is presented extremely nicely. It's very elevated. It's like from a design standpoint or from like an aesthetic standpoint, it is probably one of the better pro shops I've ever been in. 26:02 Just from like a visual like walk in and you're like, oh, this is a really nice pro shop. Like it feels like it's a pro shop at a private club. Yeah, it's very bright and and they make you walk through the whole all the merchandise before you get to the course. 26:18 Yep, of course, yeah. So yeah, I really love the pro shop and the staff. The staff's awesome. I actually personally work with them because we host Slob Babes golf events there. They're always accommodating with whatever we need so. I had that in my pros as the staff. 26:37 I've always had really great time talking to anyone, even behind the desk at the pro shop. But you know, the everything from the cart that comes by for food and drink and just the the people post round, even the staff working at the restaurant, even back then, like it was always, it reminded me of Encanto if you've ever played there, where everyone knows exactly what it is and they're just like, hey, welcome, have a good time. 27:02 You're here. Like, we're not trying to be anything super, like stuck up or pretentious. It's it's very much a community driven place. Like I like that about this place. Yeah. What's what's interesting about you saying it's a community driven place is that it's attached to probably what a top five resort in the Phoenix metropolitan area. 27:21 Like the Biltmore itself is highly rated, very nice to stay at, not cheap to stay at because I've definitely looked when I've came into town. But like, oh, me and the fiance should stay at the Biltmore. And it's like, no, I don't think we're actually going to stay at the Biltmore unless we're really splurging. But the props to generally resort courses who go the extra mile to take care of the people who are there and aren't just like, well, we can get away with whatever because you're already staying here. 27:47 So if you were in town and you want to play golf, we're just going to play right here and we got you already. Like they they understand that people who are staying there are spending good money and probably wouldn't treat it really nicely, but then also they take care of the locals in that. Aspect I feel like that with their pricing too because golf in Arizona is outrageous and they I feel like could charge whatever they wanted but they keep it reasonable compared to the others. 28:14 Yeah, they do. I actually, that's one of mine too. I said that decently priced, usually from April to October when we expect rates to go down. Lately, some courses have been keeping their rates high and it pisses me off because there's no one else here. 28:31 And Biltmore, sure enough, around April starts to go down and I can afford Biltmore, you know, peak season. Go ahead, do what you want to do, get what you can get while everyone's visiting. But for us locals, I appreciate that they go back down in rates. Yep, June 1st is the date around here. 28:49 It's getting later though. It used to be earlier. Yeah, I know it. Used to be May 1st, Yeah, I feel like it used to be April first. I feel like it used to be. April, to be honest, like it was spring training. Yeah, it was. I mean, as a person who worked like seasonal businesses, I remember like working in a restaurant and being like, OK, I need to get out of this restaurant job before the end of March because after the end of March, no one is in town. 29:12 And. Then it's. Not the case anymore. Yeah. Yeah, I feel like typically people that I know that leave for the summer usually leave in May. So they don't really get that. I mean everywhere I've called around to see when their rates drop, it's everyone tells me June 1st so. 29:29 Yeah. What about you, TJ? What are some pros? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the the new, the update that they made to the grill is incredible. I'm not, I'm not. I don't have almost even the slightest remembrance of what it was before. But it's the comparison to Papago is spot on. 29:48 It's very much got that loose vibe where, you know, you can have, you could host a kid's birthday party out there. They've got cornhole boards, they've got live music. It opens out to the full golf course. So you can still see people. You can see the green on 18, you can see people finishing up their round. 30:03 You can see Alex stick one close for a birdie. So that whole vibe, I, I, I, I regret not staying and at least hanging out and having a beer after our round. I think I had some other things that I needed to do that day, so I went and did those instead. 30:20 But that was a good one for myself. A a good range, I will say as a con of the range, it it is kind of weaved in between two holes, but it's AI won't say it's a decent drive, but it's it's a little bit of a drive from the clubhouse. 30:40 So it's not you've got to kind of buffer in that little bit of the time to drive over there. But also like it curves to the left. So I think you've got to like you've got to play it a little bit weird. If you want to hit driver, you can't just stand in the spot and hit driver or else you will end up putting balls into I think like it's 10 or 11 in the fairway there. 31:00 Luckily all yellow range balls, so put away your yellow ball when you get to hole 11, pull out a white one, play it for that hole, and then switch back to your yellow ball. And then they also have a bunker there, which is not a thing that you very commonly see on most courses at the practice. 31:16 So if you're someone who goes down there to practice because you live locally and you get to practice out of a bunker more frequently, then you have no excuses with your friends. Or if you're someone who's just trying to warm up and maybe see what the sand is like on the course, that's another thing. Because sometimes if you're travelling regionally, different courses or even locally, different courses carry different types of sand. 31:35 So that's that's something that you can check out. Yeah, yeah, you never know what you're going to get at a Muni verse resort course too. No, I had, I had exactly what you guys called out here. Decent practice facilities, appropriately priced, awesome bar and patio. 31:51 You guys all called that out. A couple other ones I had centrally located in Phoenix. It's not a crazy drive. If someone's visiting and they're staying. Like, I don't even ask them where they're staying if I'm going to take them to Biltmore because I know they're probably going to be within a certain range, you know, 20 minutes, maybe 25 minutes to get there, if not closer, as opposed to being like, let's go play Troon. 32:12 And it's like, yeah, tight. That's 50 minutes from where I'm staying. So yeah, that's why we do most of our events. There's, it's just we have women that come from all over the Valley and it's, you know, so central for everyone. Yeah. That's that's how I feel about Quintero is I really want to play Quintero when I'm in town, but I really don't. 32:31 I don't want to ask you, you live in Gilbert. I don't want to ask you to even drive to Quintero because it's like it's an hour plus for you to get to Quintero and then an hour plus to get home depending upon what time we play at and like. Yeah, it'd be like you going to Rams Hill. That's essentially what it's like. For me to go, no, I think Rams. 32:48 Hill's like. I think Rams Hill's two hours from where I'm at. Oh, is it? Well, for me, Quintero's about an hour and a half. OK, I it's really is it's. A full Yeah, it's far. I'm on. I'm in the southeast valley, so yeah, that's far. God. OK, do. You have any other Bros Massey? 33:05 Yeah fun place to take high handicappers. I wrote slash gettable course like no one's going to be like why'd you take me here? This is impossible. Like it's you know all skill levels. I feel like again, perfect place for babes golf event if that's kind of the MO with like you don't know what you're going to get at these events and everyone's going to have a good time. 33:27 And then my last one here, this is kind of a random one, but I like resorts that have, if they have two courses where the two courses feel different. If you get 2 of the same course, then fine. You know, I might alternate here or there, but I don't feel like after I've played one of the courses I really need to come back, you know, with within a few months of playing 'cause there's so many other courses here in the valley where I can go kind of play else. 33:52 But you know, for the Biltmore, not just the Estates course, going to the links side is a really different experience. And sometimes like I've had rounds where I went twice to Biltmore in the same month, one at one at Adobe States and one at Links and felt like I played two completely different course, you know, locations. 34:12 So I think that's a pro where you you definitely get some variety when you go out there. Yeah, I mean, the day after we played we had a babes golf event. The next day we played links. Yeah, it was fun being there two days in a row. Yeah, yeah, at least has some funky holes. 34:29 That's a really funky holes. It was funny. I was from when I had played that time 15 years ago or whatever. At this point, I couldn't remember which of the two courses I had played before, but it was very apparent that because they are so different. Like once we were like four holes in, I remember telling Alex I was like, I definitely did not play this course. 34:48 Like, this is not, this is not the course that I remember playing because yeah, Lynx weaves a little bit more in through homes and around everything. Yeah, which, Which was also funny. We talked about this when we played Alex, that it's funny that they decided to name Adobe into estates when the Lynx course is the one that weaves through houses and neighborhoods through the estates. 35:15 Whereas I guess they're calling that one estates because it's bordered by houses, which also some of the houses that are on the course. I mean pros if you're. Someone who just. Pros, if you're someone who just likes to Zillow creep also there there needs to be a term for people who creep on prices in homes on Zillow. 35:33 We need to like, define an actual name for those types of people besides, besides weirdos and, and, but yeah, like you can just, I mean, I'm sure you could just pull up your phone and be like, oh, that house is $10 million. Like it, it's got 18 bedrooms in it. 35:48 Like there's some houses out there where I was like, what are they doing with that house? Yeah, and I mean the Lynx course. I feel like the houses are even more insane. They are, there's actually off of the 18th hole at Lynx course is one of Frank Lloyd Wright's homes, like he lived there. 36:07 And it's, you can look into the backyard and it has some of his original artwork and architecture and it is an insane backyard, like right off the green. Yeah. Anyone have any other pros before we switch to the cons? No, I'll start off with the cons and I've already said it, the errant T, the errant shots from the other holes. 36:28 It's, it's a bit of a saving private rhyme duck thing for me sometimes on some of the holes. And I don't have a ton of cons here. I only have three and we kind of talked about them. I said the errant shots. I said #2 back when it was Adobe rounds took a while here thanks to, you know, Philip and Gladys or whatever you want to call the old woman. 36:50 And then #3 I still prefer the Lynx course. I've played Estates since I've since it's been redesigned and it is much better than Adobe, yet I still prefer Lynx when I go. I don't know why. I just kind of like the Lynx course. It feels like a more rounded test of golf for me. 37:08 But again, if I was taking someone to visit then I probably would choose Estates. So it's not really a cons, it's just more of a preference. It's funny you say the thing about the Aaron T shots and it was the story that I thought about earlier and now I have a chance to actually bring it up back up because we segwayed perfectly into it. 37:26 First hole here, hit a ball into the fairway bunker on like the left side of the hole, which runs next to the left side of the hole, I think on maybe even 18. And we pull up to the bunker and I know that Alex, I'm going to call you out here. You were also in the bunker, but you were further up. 37:43 So there's and there's three balls, I think in the bunker or two balls in the bunker. And there's a guy walking through the bunker carrying a rake. And I'm like, hey, is that a Bridgestone? And he just looks at me and goes, no. And he's maybe 10 feet away from this ball. And I was like, OK, sure. I hadn't been paying attention. 37:59 Maybe he had not seen it already, or maybe he had already seen it and he was walking back to get the rake or whatnot. And we, so then we drive up. There's two other balls, one's Alex's, and the other one is definitely not a Bridgestone, which is what I play. And then all of a sudden you hear the guy yell from the back, oh, it is a Bridgestone like. 38:16 And I was like, in what world does he just assume that that ball is his ball from 10 feet away? Without checking. Yeah, so you run into some weird things like that. So confident, like he heard. Confident. Yeah. Yeah, as if, as if. 38:32 I I mean as if I was offending him by asking him if it was my ball. Like because we have because we share. I I don't, I think that and I think that fairway bunker is on our hole and not his hole. So he was already over. And I think actually I think we might have hit their cart with the ball. 38:49 I don't know. Not that's I think. That I think that hole is 14 if I remember right. But yeah, it's kind of like, it's kind of like in between the two holes. So. But I think he hit. I don't even know where his ball is, but he was definitely in the next bunker. 39:08 Yeah, it was further up for. Sure, yeah. Yeah. For some other cons here, like I said, I I pointed out the one about the driving range like it's it's good, but for slicers, I think they're probably getting a lot of balls errantly just slammed into other holes because of the way that it's shaped. 39:26 And I don't think people necessarily might even take notice of it because they're they're used to just lining up straight and hitting straight away in a in a driving range. I will say I was a little underwhelmed by the offering at the turn. 39:43 The hot dog was good, not great. I will give them points. They had pretty much not, not to goat Hill standards, but they had a lot of condiment selection available for you. So that was kind of nice available for free reign. It wasn't just like, OK, I'm going to put a little shake of onions on here for you, but do they have more than? 40:02 More than a hot dog or just hot dogs. They had a hot dog and I think they had like a Turkey sandwich and those were like the two entrees that they had. And I was like for something of this stature and knowing that they have a full restaurant right there, generally you can prep some of that stuff or make extras of whatever is in the restaurant to stock at the turnstand that's just right behind it. 40:24 They can very easily walk it or drive it out. It's not like Troy Pines where there's a turnstand that is between 10:00 and 11:00 that's, you know, hundreds of yards away. So there's that. And I will say it, it, it did feel like a lot of the holes kind of start to run together because it is just very flat. 40:47 Like I said, it is. I know, I know, I'm, you know, somewhat, I guess degrading myself here where, oh, I can get out there and score easy because it's relatively flat and all the holes kind of run next to each other and it's not target golf or anything like that. 41:04 But at the same time, I do want to, you know, try and have to hit, hit some shots. I do like to, you know, think about that a little bit. I think I, I think a lot of the times I didn't necessarily ever have to think about not hitting driver off the tee on a, on a par 4 or a par five that day. 41:20 Yeah, there's water on one of the holes or two of the holes, right? There's like a there's not a lake. There's like a little Creek that runs between 11 and 18. Isn't it? Yeah, I. 41:37 Can't I can't remember what that I, I, I know it, I know it's on the right hand side of of 11 going out. And then there's another hole where you come back up and like the last thing you want to do is put it over on the right side because there's also like a huge tree over there that guards your, your look into the green. 41:55 Yeah, but and there and I think it used to be a dry Creek and now it's a wet Creek. There is like a little on 18 like right in front of the ladies tee box. Remember. Yes, there's like a tiny little like. In there. 42:11 Yes, there's like a tiny little like man made lake there, not even like. It's like a water reservoir. Yeah, it's. Yeah. It's an interesting thought, but yeah, not a ton of not a ton of shot variation out there, if I were to say. 42:27 Yeah, how about you, Alex? My first con would definitely be the range. I don't enjoy going to their range because it is a lot of work. I feel like it's not easy to get out there. 42:44 Yeah, you have to get there early, earlier than you would for another golf course. I feel like just to get in a car, drive over to the range. And I also just like, don't like their range balls. Yeah, I don't like I, I don't enjoy going to the range there, so I never do. 43:04 Not a ton of spots either, not a touch especially for do either of you know, does the links course have its own range or do you share the range with that? No, you share a range. OK, so it so it runs into the Torrey Pines problem where it's a range with like 12 to 14 spots. 43:20 That is for, that is for two courses and for locals. Yeah. Yeah, I don't. I don't know how many locals would choose built more to go to for a range. And they and they have mats and I don't really enjoy hitting off mats, but I don't think they'd be able to do anything else because it's such a small area. 43:38 They couldn't, yeah, move people, you know, Yeah. But yeah, they can't get. Back and forth. Much and then there's, you know, all the range balls because there's no Nets. So there's range balls on 10 and the I don't know what the other hole is 9. 43:56 You saw some whey out there like there's a par three that runs way back on the right hand side of it and they were on like the backhand side of the par 3 where I was like, oh, I see something over here. You know how sometimes like you don't necessarily always know that it is a yellow ball when you see it from a distance. So you're like, oh, a ball like something that stands out amongst the grass. 44:13 Then you walk over there and you're like, Nope, yellow range ball. Yeah. So the range is definitely a con to me. That's OK because I like to warm up on the front 9 and I would also say we have lunch at the Adobe, but since I'm a frequent visitor the service is really slow so every single time. 44:39 So I would definitely plan on going there and not expecting a fast meal and to enjoy your time and the view because it is not good at all. So I think that's about it though con wise. 44:57 I I love playing both the golf courses. They're fun and welcoming and like I said, I love the staff there and the pro shops been really awesome. Yeah, so. What is your favorite range in the valley to go to if you wanted to practice? 45:14 That's so hard. I honestly feel like I've not found a good practice center but I am a member at Phoenix Country Club but I live in Scottsdale so to go practice I would have to drive 2530 minutes so it's not convenient. 45:31 There's that's Scottsdale. Scottsdale, for being a a world class golf destination, does not have any great ranges. No what? No, that's not true. We really don't, I feel like. Like public ones that you would go and do that you would go and use when you're not. 45:50 If you're not playing Scottsdale, yes. Yeah, what about? What about Greyhawk? That you you would go to Greyhawk when you if you weren't playing. Yeah, that range is fantastic. And you go to Isabel's afterwards. I mean, if I can you get out on that range if you're not playing, yeah. 46:06 Yeah, you can go there. It's funny, we I mean a lot. So many people always ask like where should I practice? And it's actually been really hard to make recommendations. I do say talking stick a lot but I think their large bucket is 30 bucks. 46:23 Yeah, OK. So. I'm Scott's still native. Let me go off here for a second. I got, I got also I go to all the ranges. You know, what's really funny is I think about this and when I think about Scottsdale, I think about like 3101 Scottsdale and like my definition of North Scottsdale used to be like. 46:40 Cactus. Like cactus? Was as north. As Scottsdale went and it like, you know, and then also because of when I played golf, it was like, Oh yeah, like Scottsdale didn't go that far north for that long. And then I stopped playing golf. So like, I didn't come back and play Greyhawk until after that. So I'm thinking like, Oh yeah, there's only like a handful of courses in Scottsdale. 46:58 It's continental. It's Silverado. It's Coronado like, you know what I'm saying? So but I'm just I'm I'm. I'm adding an asterisk to be calling. I mean, I would love recommendations. I drove by Continental the other day. There's actually a ton of people out on the range. 47:14 I've never tried to hit that range, but it's. It's the only it's it's either if you live in like central or South Scottsdale. The only place you really can go hit balls outside of I would say grass clippings would be continental or Coronado. So they're always busy. Grass clippings is good, that's where we've been doing arranged meetups, but. 47:34 Papa go has a good it's just like grass clippings. You're on mats, but you you know, you got lose right next door to it. OK, tears of tears of driving range. This will make good social clip. OK, don't say things like that. We have to I. Can cut it. Editor's privilege. 47:52 Yeah, if you're wanna, if you're talking ranges where like you know, it's a free round range, right? Like maybe locals aren't gonna go all the way up, but like the range facilities are really nice. Sure, Gray Hawk, I'd put in that category. Probably more people who have a round coming up versus like public going to practice. 48:07 But that's a great range. Kierlyn. Kierlyn's range is really good. I really enjoy there. They have the shade awning, they're on grass and they're right next to the pun green in the restaurant and everything there too. Papago for Lou's right there and you get to hit against the especially at sunset when it's the Papago mountains are popping orange. 48:29 That's like a really cool view, although it is on mats. If you want a secret range, not great for events, but great for like you just don't want anyone else around, go to Starfire. Starfire. Our next outing there. Oh OK, maybe they do have good events. 48:45 I, I have, I've never done an event there, but the pro was very kind. He's super excited we're coming and he said I really hope you enjoy it because we need more ladies out here so. That's a very true statement from Starfire. OK. The I'll hold my thoughts on Starfire as a whole but I grew up right next to her on Cactus and they never had a range when they were Scottsdale Country Club and even when they became Starfire they didn't have one for a long time. 49:11 Then they built 1 randomly and they built a little small par three like course back there. Mulligan. That range is not staffed, no one really knows about it, and there's a machine and you just put in a code and you don't have to go into the pro shop to get the code. 49:27 It has a credit card reader on the machine so you can park, turn right and go straight to the machine. Get your bucket. I think it's like 12 bucks for a large all grass and I'm usually the only one out there. And so I don't live in Scottsdale anymore, but when I go to visit my parents, I bring my clubs and I go to that range afterwards and I have like a great Zen session to myself at Starfire. 49:50 OK, I wonder if people have figured it out now. I mean, maybe they have, but every time I've been, I was there. By the R3 golf course, you said? OK, and the perk and then Phoenician Phoenician has a really good range. 50:08 They redid their range and it is gorgeous now and it is really, really nice, but you would not go there as a local you. Definitely before I think way back in the day, I snuck out there 'cause I was like, this is far from the pro shop and it's unmanned. Like if you just parked your car in that parking garage over there and you just grabbed like 3 clubs out of your bag and just walked out there. 50:28 And then somebody would be like, what are you doing out here? Be like, oh, I'm at the resort. I, I, I brought, I brought down my pitching wedge and my sandwich to just hit some shots. Like, they probably wouldn't think anything of it, but yeah, I don't think. Yeah, it's a hassle to get to from the pro shop, but. Yeah, you've got to walk. You've got to. Yeah. And. I'll get off my soapbox on ranges, but OK, let's get into the must play test. 50:50 We got 10 questions here. But before we do, let's hear again about our sponsor for today's episode, Bird Darts. Yeah, so if you listen to our most recent San Diego based episode, Balboa, you probably heard us talk about bird darts and their new 4 pack option that they've got that I've got right here in my hand. News flash, they're out the guys over at Bird Darts or I guess the guy Brett was kind enough to send us a nice little care package for our boys trip that we had last week and while the guys were in town. 51:17 So all the boys got their chance to get their hands on the new 4 packs. And Sean, you said that every time you bring bird darts out of your bag, you you're getting questions pretty much all the time. Yeah, because I put them in the pocket on the front. So when I pull one out, I pull the whole box out, which by the way is nice in itself that I don't have to grab my hand into a jumble of tease. 51:37 And when I pull it out, I usually get someone going, oh, lighten one up or some like reference to cigarettes, which is exactly what I want because then I can turn them easily. Product placement be like, no, it's actually cool. T called bird darts. Pull one out. I usually fling them one and then they're like, that's sick. 51:54 And then I watch them like kind of look at the box and everything else. So it's kind of a fun little, you know, not party trick per SE, but like a fun little thing to pull out whenever you're on the T box and you're playing with a randa. Yeah, I will say the the attention to detail of the packaging and the aesthetic also helps it go a long way. 52:13 I know they've got some other competitors in the space currently that are pretty much just ripping off existing cigarette brands for their designs. But I do like that bird darts look a little bit more elegant, much more put together. And then also like if you want to go and make your own and you want that put together. 52:31 Nice feel. They do do Co branding. So I know Brett's got a lot of things in the works with some other brands golf courses. I, I think he's got like some corporate events that he's even cooking up right now where he's got a lot of designs kind of in the hopper. 52:46 And, and don't think that your company is too small or too big for him to work with you. Please, like go reach out to him. They can mock some stuff up really quick and just figure out what the, what the minimum order quantity is for you guys and get some cool stuff for, for maybe your next golf event. Or if you've got, you know, a lot of people in your company who just happened to be golfers who would like to maybe Rep your brand. 53:06 But on some Tees like Hand Up, I love just wearing things that my company sells sometimes because I like repping my company. So if you're one of those guys, definitely go reach out to the guys over at Bird Darts. And if you want to go reach out to them, it's Bird darts.com. It's not spelled weird, but I will spell it out. 53:22 BIRD darts.com. And actually right now, I think we're still running 10% off discount if you just use code fair wagers. Let's get into the must play test. TJ and I have devised an objective test here of 10 questions to determine if a golf course is a must play. 53:38 The course must score a six out of 10 to be up for debate or get a 7 out of 10 or higher to automatically earn the coveted must play status. Question one, the Augusta Test. Is this course easy to get a tee time on? Does it have a straightforward booking process and are there times available the week of the intended play? 53:55 Alex, please go first. Yes. You play here the most I'm assuming? So yeah, I, I always book groups, so I'm always a month ahead and I'm emailing the pro. So, but then I, I mean, I think weekends might be a little bit hard if you're trying to do like a few days before. 54:17 But if you're a week out, I think you can find something. Agreed, I haven't had a hard time playing here. This has actually been my fall back option when I have a hard time playing other places. TJ. I mean, generally I default to Sean on a lot of things like this. 54:34 I was actually just pulling up the website looking just to see if I could actually book a tea time for this weekend. I'm the I'm usually the planner, the guy that books the the tea time for the group. I I booked for us too. Yeah, it's not an easy job. We're under appreciated. 54:50 It's. Going to be a little tough to get in this weekend already, but I think. It also. There's also two different events. There's there's an event on the estates course at 6:00 AM and there's an event on the estates course at 1:00 PM. So yeah, this weekend's a tough little look. 55:06 I think they do also run a lot of events out there because I believe that day that even when we played out, there was two other events going on, on like a Friday morning. So I'm going to default to you guys and we're just going to pass this one. We're going to send it on to the next one. OK, I think it's a pass. 55:24 So one for one question 2 the bang for your buck test. Is this golf course worth the rate you pay? Do you feel like this course is a good value during peak season? Alex is shaking your head. No, Yeah, it's this is a, this is a toughly worded question for Arizona because when you talk to locals, locals are always going to be like, hell no, I'm not paying that price in peak season to go play golf there or you're picking and choosing what course you will go play. 55:57 So I feel like Arizona courses get a really bad rap during peak season here because. But some courses in peak season I'm willing to pay because they're just that good and I want to take someone. What let me let me ask you guys a a question because obviously when Alex and I played it was not peak season, but what would what would the estates course be during peak season for tea time? 56:17 Go ahead, Alex. I'm not too sure but because I always get the 9 hole rate and then TJ and I got a really good rate the day we played, but I want to say it's between 15180 for 18 holes, is that right? 56:35 Yeah, I was going to say I saw it for 160 back in January. OK. Yeah, which given like you know, when we talked about other courses, this one's far out Southern Dunes right outside the valley. It's slept on and that's why it can be a little cheaper. 56:51 Southern Dunes for the quality though of that course was 185 I think the same time I looked. So estates being only 25 bucks cheaper is not to me a comparable course prime location. 57:07 It's you're paying for location for sure. Yeah, I feel like if you do ask someone in Arizona, they'll say it's worth it compared to everything else. It's on the cheaper end. If you ask someone from San Diego, And since I'm from San Diego and golf, like people don't want to pay more than 100 bucks to play a round of golf, San Diego would probably think it's it's more expensive than it should be. 57:31 Yeah. Yeah. So are you a fail for this one? Yeah, fail. Yeah, so am I likewise. Yeah, I'll give it to you guys. OK, so one for two. Question 3, the Iverson test. Does this course have good practice facilities? 57:47 Would you spend time warming up or just head for the bar before the round? We talk about practice, not a game. Please TJ, kick us off. Man, I, I know why it was funny that I kind of had it in my pros and then Alex had it in her cons because it's all, it's all personal preference. 58:05 And a lot of times I say, does it check all the boxes right? It it has a range that you can hit every club at. It has a putting green chip at you can as a bunker. It checks all the boxes. But in this instance, I feel like there's a few things that are dinging it that probably bring it down to a fail for me. 58:28 The proximity to the pro shop slash clubhouse take it down, but I hadn't really thought about it. But Alex talking about the quality of the balls, they're not. It doesn't feel like they're doing a ton of cycling through there in those balls. It feels like they're probably just running the same ones through there. 58:45 And then, yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm, I, I digress on mats and whatnot, but the actual number of stalls to hit out of I could see being a real issue on a busier day. Luckily, I think we had an earlier tee time on like a Friday morning, so there was no issue for me to go out there. 59:02 I think there was three other guys out on the range total. But I can see a real problem on a Saturday morning, having to budget time to get there early enough to probably have to wait for a spot to hit in, hit drive back, do the whole thing. 59:18 So I think it slides over to like, I'm going to give it a half a point. OK, how about that? It checks. It checks most of the boxes, but it doesn't check all the boxes. Yeah, if you're on the fence, Alex, you can give it a half point as opposed to a pass or fail. But what? Do you? Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna fail it. 59:34 I feel like even when we have people show up 20 minutes before their tee time, by the time they get their bag on their cart and get going, if they have like 15 minutes before they tee off, there's no way. No way. There's no way. So it's not like some golf courses, oh, I tee off 15 minutes, I can go hit balls for 5 minutes and then I'll be on the tee. 59:56 That that's not the case here. So I like convenient, but yeah. And then the range balls and the mats. I just I would rather just warm up on the front 9. You know what I do really like that courses don't always do, but when courses do it, I think it's a good touch is either a second putting green that is right next to the first tee or if just the putting green, like if the range can be far away, but the putting green will always be right next to the first tee. 1:00:29 I think that's a really good touch. I know you potentially get some people who hang out around the putting green and then you know you're right there. But I love the idea of being able to like put our cart in the line for the groups and then go walk over putt and then I can just go walk up and then pull the cart up to the first tee when it's done. 1:00:48 Yeah. OK, I'm a fail for this one and it's for all the same reasons you just mentioned. And I have been victim to the didn't leave enough time and didn't warm up. Plus they got a great bar so I prefer to go to the bar instead. So we're one for three here. 1:01:06 Question for the Jonesy test. Could you see yourself spending $100 on merch in their pro shop? Do they have a logo or apparel worth wearing? Alex, I think you spoke to this a little bit. You want to go first. Oh yeah, I feel like spending $100 there would be really easy. Just go like that. 1:01:22 Yeah. Yeah, the from the from the brands and the merch that they do carry. It's it's very quickly like I know we kind of model this question around like usually buying two things, but I think a lot of the things in here you would potentially buy would be one thing. The logo is good, not great. 1:01:41 I think it's it's a but on the risk of sounding offensive, it's a touch feminine. I would say it gives it gives off almost like jewelry brand logo to me, but I don't hate it. 1:01:58 I like I said, I don't, I don't love it, but I would wear something with it on and I think I would still buy something here. Also, like you said, the pro shop is like so nice. It's like, it's like very inviting that you want to spend money in there. I did the, I did the walkthrough to check in and get myself situated because I'd never been at the golf course before. 1:02:17 And then once I did that and like got my bag on my cart, I like went back in and did like an actual like walk around through the pro shop and did like a deep dive and like actually combed through some some racks of stuff as well. Yeah, no, I'm, I'm actually really curious now, like why that's their logo. 1:02:35 They redid it. That's a new logo. Oh, really? Yeah, I don't know when they redid it, but it used to be a Frank Lloyd Wright looking like, I don't know how to describe it, kind of the shape of the of the resort, really. But the one thing that Bernadette pointed out when we did the Insignias Ranch pot, Alex, was just me and my, you know, never stepping into someone's shoes syndrome. 1:03:02 I never thought about the options for women in these pro shops. I have been, you know, thinking of pro shops as, yeah, they have a ton of great stuff. And then she pointed out correctly, that some of a lot of pro shops have like, a section for women right here. And then 75% of it's for men. And I was like, wow, that is very true. 1:03:19 I hadn't thought about that. And last time I was at this pro shop, it was pretty split. I remember there were quite a few options for women. And I was impressed that, you know, it was, you know, it was balanced. Yeah I'm pretty sure Biltmore's merchandiser is a woman so makes sense. 1:03:37 And I know in Cedars Ranch their pro shop is so bad. Yeah, it's not. Great. Not great. Yeah, another golf course. This is off topic, but another golf course. What's the private course in San Diego that's actually closing? 1:03:57 It's closed for renovation right now. Farms. Oh, Rancho Santa Fe. Yeah, I'm pretty sure they got voted one of the best pro shops in Southern California and they also have a female merchandiser. Well. I'd have to. I'm not too. 1:04:12 I'm not too far from there. I might have to and I actually know a few members over there. I might have to. I might have to play that card here pretty soon just to get over there and. Yeah, I think they're closed right now because they're redoing the golf course, but for sure, OK. 1:04:29 OK. Is that where Alyssa plays TJ? No, Alyssa. Alyssa's a member of Santa Luz, which is Santa Luis closer to my house. Yeah, no, I'm trying to think if, you know, slightly Dialed Golf on Instagram. Yeah, he plays over there. 1:04:45 That's where he that's where he does his ace challenge. He works over at the farms. Oh, that's right, He's been doing this, his ace challenge. I think he's on day 279 of trying to get a hole in one. Nice. OK, so we're passing that one. 1:05:01 So they are now 2 for four. Question 5, the buzzworthy test. Are there multiple holes worth talking about? Does this course have more than one hole that a group would immediately want to go play again? TJ, go for it. I think it's a no for me. It's really like it's a lot of times we talk about this where a course has a signature hole. 1:05:24 I feel like this course is missing a signature hole. There's there's nothing when it when Alex and I talked about the round earlier and we really only remembered for birdie on 18 because that was the last thing that happened that day, right? And she, I mean, doing it wrong. 1:05:39 She stuck when close. It was the best golf shot that either of us had hit all day, hands down. But there was no other hole where I was like, oh man, there was this, this great dog leg left and I hit, I was able to cut the corner or any of that stuff like it's, it's, it's really just that a lot of them start to run together. 1:05:56 It's really just missing the idea of a standout signature. Yeah, let alone I would agree. Oh, that would necessitate a pass here. So it's a fail. I would agree. Sorry, I didn't. Yeah. No, I got that vibe. Yeah, OK. I'm a fail too. But Alex, feel free to disagree if you disagree. 1:06:13 I feel like their signature hole is 3 where you're looking back at the mountain. I don't know which one it is. It's not Camelbock. No, it's. It's the Phoenix. Preserve right there. 1:06:29 It's just the Phoenix preserve. Yeah, yeah, I know. Are you talking about, you're talking about the, the, are you talking about the par four or the par three there, Alex? The par four and then the, I mean the so you play 1-2's, par 53's loops back around and goes towards the mountain, towards the clubhouse. 1:06:48 It's a par four and then I think the next hole is a par four and then there's a par 3. So those three holes, you, you have that Mountain View, but I don't, I don't think they're the signature hole. But yeah, there's not really any holes that are like, Oh my gosh, this is the best one. 1:07:10 Yeah, they run together. So I'd give that a pass. A pass in the bad sense, you're saying? Yeah, I would pass on. I know what you're saying. Yeah, Yeah. OK. So 2 for five here. 1:07:26 Question 6, the glizzy test. Does this course have good food at the turn? Are you eating here or packing your own snacks? And this is turn specific. I think I, because I touched upon it earlier, granted, I was on vacation, so I did, I was on vacation and I, I when we go play a new course, I, I have to try out the food so that I can rate the glizzy test properly. 1:07:48 It was a good hot dog. It wasn't, it wasn't like a standout hot dog. It was pretty straightforward. I think the, the wildest thing on there was that it was a poppy seed bun. But then Alex and I had to have the weird conversation of, hey, if I have poppy seeds in my teeth, please will you just tell me? And then she was like, yeah, well, actually all over your face. 1:08:05 That's a Chicago thing, by the way, isn't it? Because it's really. Yeah. I mean, it was not a, it was not a Chicago dog. I will say that I know it was not a Chicago dog. It they had the overly green relish, which Alex, now that I think about it, we had talked about it that day where the relish was really green. 1:08:20 But that is a staple of a traditional Chicago dog is really green relish. We thought that it was because a few weeks after Saint Patrick's Day and they just had leftover really green relish. It was like neon green. It was like it was crazy. I've never seen. 1:08:36 But I can buy. Yeah, but like I said, I, I every golf course that we're probably going to go to is going to have a pretty standard hot dog, right? I can't can't say yes, you had a passable hot dog. There's not a whole lot going on to a hot dog. A hot dog has a very low floor and a very low ceiling, so or a high. 1:08:54 Floor and hot dog too. Some terns have chicken Caesar wraps or some terns have other stuff. That's what I mean. It had, it had a, it had a hot dog and a Turkey sandwich and that was pretty much it. So. Chips and candy. So chips. And candy, you know, a protein bar. 1:09:10 It was, it was pretty standard. And I was, I would have expected more for a place that has a very nice restaurant. Just a mere 100 feet. Yeah, that's a fail for me. OK, I'm a fail as well. MFL. OK, I think it's going to do well on the back end of this test, but so far it's only two for six here. 1:09:28 So question 7, the Marshall test, does this course have a decent pace of play? Can you rely on a relatively quick round here if you have somewhere to be after? I'm going to go first. I know I've said I've made some jokes about it, but my last few rounds I've played here, it has gone by pretty fast. It actually has been improved with what they did in 2023. 1:09:46 And so I am now officially a pass on this Marshall test. Whereas probably you asked me this 10 years ago, I would have said no. So I'm a pass for this one. Maybe the extra length in the rerouting helped it a little bit. And the trees. Maybe, yeah. Interesting. 1:10:02 So interesting. What do you guys say? Yeah, we, we had I, I, I know I am only basing this off of 1 round. I used to try and do a little bit of research otherwise to see if anybody brings up pace of play. I didn't really see a ton and that day that we played, we experienced almost none. I think there was a a handful of times where maybe on a par three we got stuck behind somebody waiting on the waiting on T box. 1:10:24 But that's I feel like nowadays that happens at every golf course, so. Yeah, I mean, and we're, it was just us 2, so we're a twosome way to foursome in front of us. I felt like the pace was pretty decent, considering that we were probably playing a lot faster than they were. Yeah, yeah, I, yeah. 1:10:41 I mean, I feel like I, I play there quite often. Feel like compared to other courses on the weekends that are public, 4 1/2 hours is good, 4 to 4 1/2 hours. But I think one thing is I've noticed that it takes a while to tee off. 1:11:05 You can get stuck behind a few groups teeing off. And so you won't, you won't really be teeing off at your actual tee time. But once you're get out there like the, the groups have a good, they have a good break between them, I feel like. Yeah, I'm now laughing remembering the day because there was a huge jam up on one because also the cart girl stopped on the tee box of 1 to let everyone grab beers and whatnot for that. 1:11:35 And it was like, she almost ought to just wait out at out in the fairway at 1 and wait for people to just come to her the whole time and have somebody pick them up on their second shot as opposed to jamming up the tee box. But. That was well, they're not thinking about pace of play. No, I wouldn't be if I was in that cart making that money. 1:11:56 But yeah, OK. So it sounds like majority though we're saying pass for this one perhaps? Yeah. OK, 3 for seven. Question 8, the high handicapper test. Would a mid to high handicapper enjoy this course in typical conditions? Is it fair to all handicaps and are the green or pin positions fair? 1:12:13 It's a resounding yes for me. Resounding yes, the the like I said, be knowing that you're probably gonna stay in a playable place off of the tee helps ease a lot of tensions for a high handicapper. I know for myself it's, it's it's very nice, Sean and I actually talked about this when I was in town and I played about this and I said the one of the harder struggles of being really errant off the tee is you don't get to practice that next shot mentality because you usually have to go and go look for your ball and maybe you find it, maybe you don't. 1:12:46 So then you're out there, you, you, you don't find it. Then you've got to drop one. Now you're thinking, OK, now I'm lying 3 and you can't like, you can't just be like, oh, I had an errant shot. Let's think about the next one like it really air shots you. You have to think about what you just did for. Yeah. But this takes that away, and none of the green complexes are. 1:13:05 They're more difficult to try and balance out that the course is fairly open, but none of them are too. Insane. I didn't feel like I was out abandoned, you know, putting off of the green a ton. No, and you're not going to lose your ball like a typical desert courses in Phoenix, right? You go play like Lookout Mountain, for example. 1:13:20 Like that course is so slow because so many people are searching for their balls and a high handicapper is not going to have any fun there. This course is a great place to take someone. Yeah. OK. We're all pretty resounding. Yes. So that's four for 8:00. So it needs to pass the next two questions to be up for debate. 1:13:38 Question 9. The vibes test. Is this course worth staying at post round? Do they have a good restaurant or patio scene now? They do. If you have the time, like I said, to hang out for a few hours, yes. And the food is good. 1:13:55 The view is amazing. They have live music on the weekends. I don't know if they do during the week, but it's a yes for me. Family friendly too. Yeah, family friendly. So if you, you know, if you want to have the wife and kids come meet you post round or however, so I, I, it sounds like it's more of a order at the bar, pay at the bar, take your drink outside and sit on the patio. 1:14:18 Type 5 that might be better suited, you know, close out just in case if things get too busy or if you guys decide to call it early. Yeah. That's true. That's a good point, yeah, but I'm a pass for this one too. Yeah, it's like I said, I didn't do it, but I, I, I could very much see myself consuming multiple adult beverages on that patio. 1:14:39 Yeah. OK. So 5 for 9, it's got to pass this next one here to be up for debate. The dime a dozen test. Is this course unique to the area or could you get this golf experience somewhere else on your trip or visit? Alex, do you want to go first? I feel like it's unique. 1:14:55 It's like we said earlier, it's very central. If you're staying in Scottsdale or Phoenix, it's a beautiful area. It's one of my favorite areas in Phoenix and there's a ton to do around there. Stay around there. It's yeah. 1:15:14 OK, TJ, Or do you want me to go next? Why don't you go, Sean? OK, I'm a fail. OK, I'll say. I'll say why I love I it is unique in terms of the OR the resort like they given the history and stuff like that. 1:15:32 But the reason I fail this is because the second part of the question, could you get this somewhere else on your trip or visit to the area? The estates course, the one we're talking about on this spot, feels very much like a lot of other Parkland or just in the middle of somewhere type courses. 1:15:50 The hotel feels unique to me and that in itself is like really cool. But I, I feel like a lot of those, what you just talked about, TJ, the Scottsdale courses and your old knowledge of South of one O 1 reminds me of a states course somewhat where it's like those courses packed into a smaller footprint. 1:16:12 And it's not like crazy elevation change or signature holes. Like you got to go play this hole. There's such a cool view of the superstitions or you got to go play here. Like you'll never believe the conditions of the course or any of those things. So for me this is like a fail I think. Yeah, my, my, the thing that I kept harping back to was it reminds me of Encanto, but surrounded with nice houses instead of no houses. 1:16:38 Like it's just kind of tucked into the city a little bit. Like I said, I I think you could go play Encanto and get a very similar vibe from the Gulf itself. This is this is tough because I feel like if we were rating the Lynx course, it's like a two point swing in the other direction. 1:16:56 I think Estates fails this question for me, but I think Lynx passes it and then I think Lynx passes the buzzworthy test on the other side. Yeah. So it's like it's one of those ones where I think, I think for me it's a fail and Estates ends up here as like a 5 out of 10, right? 1:17:16 Probably is A and is a should play. But I think that if you're trying to go play golf at Biltmore, you should probably try and sneak out to the Lynx course unless you are a high handicapper. Well, then I this course this yeah, Lynx could score possibly higher, but however, I think Lynx may have failed the high handicapper test, whereas the states is better. 1:17:37 So right, Whop a point there? I don't know. But either way, when we come up with five out of 10s, we still call them should plays. It's not easy to get 2 five points. And when we first did this pod, we you know, I think after we've done the first few episodes where we worded some of our questions, but Dobson scored a 5 out of 10 and that's one of my favorite courses ever. 1:18:00 But it just, you know, there's, there's certain things about it that just didn't or fit this rubric, should I say, But. Yeah, Dobson got a five, I think Balboa got a 5. And Balboa. Balboa got a 5. Yeah, I love playing Balboa. So yeah, we're not no shade, you know, do we? 1:18:16 No, it's just, it's. Just where it, where it, where it sounds? It's just there's so many courses in Phoenix, and this doesn't necessarily make the top like of the list of must plays, Yeah. It's a it's a sliding scale in Phoenix for sure, cuz then cuz also you think about like there are some questions like that one the dime a dozen where well, that's relative to Phoenix. 1:18:35 If you put estates course in some other places in the country, it's a resounding yes. They don't have golf courses like that, right? True, So you know what might make this golf course a must play is attending a Babes golf event and having that crew and that community out there. 1:18:53 Yeah, and if you were to survey the babes golf girls, they would say estates over links. Yeah, yeah. I would say links over estates, but yeah, we love it because it's central, it's welcoming, it's fun, it's they give us a great rate. 1:19:16 So that's where I'm at with it. So why don't we transition, We'll call estates officially a 5 out of 10. But Alex, I mean, I'd love for you to talk a little bit more about what's coming up for babes Golf or anything on the radar that people should know about. Yeah. Well, every month we do range meet up. 1:19:33 So check our calendar for that. That's the first event that you want to attend just to come meet the ladies and practice. We have location in San Diego and in Arizona. So both of those locations have golf outings too. We play Fun 9 and wines once a month and then also eighteen holes once a month. 1:19:52 So we try to bop around and play different golf courses all over the valley and all over Southern California. And the most exciting thing coming up is our annual Babecation. It's our members golf trip and this year you guys are the first ones to hear it, but we are headed to Cabo. 1:20:13 Nice. Yeah, super excited about that. It's going to be the end of October, beginning of November. We're still trying to lock in those dates, but it looks like it's going to shape up to be great weather, great golf and an all inclusive resort. 1:20:29 So we're super excited. Is that a + 1 event or is it just for the babes of? That's for the ladies, but we you know, we can't say men are not allowed. So you want to come, you're more than welcome to come, but it's going to be a lot of women and we like to have fun. 1:20:47 So if you want to come out and participate in that, we we will welcome you. I was. Just wondering if I should get my wife to sign up before the Cabo match so. Yes, 100%. What what might sway him is do you guys have any courses set on the docket? 1:21:02 Do you guys have any early contenders for must play Cabo courses? We do, but I haven't announced it yet. So I was trying to get yeah, yeah, we haven't announced it yet. 1:21:18 And our members will be the first ones to know, so I cannot share that information. But please follow us on Instagram. You can subscribe to our newsletter. We send out our events weekly, so yeah, if you want to be the first one to know, make sure you're following along. 1:21:36 Yeah, and we'll have all that information in the description of the video both on YouTube and Spotify. So if you want to go sign up for the newsletter or go give Babes Golf a follow, we'll have all that readily and easily accessible. And as always, you know, I know we rated it a 5 out of 10, but we strongly encourage that everybody should always go out, play these courses, establish your own ratings for them. 1:21:57 We might have something in the works that we are going to be sending to some people so that they can have reminders of what the must play tests are while they're out on the golf course. Let your brain spin on what that possibly could be. But yeah, get out there. Establish your own rating for for the estates course over at the Biltmore. 1:22:13 And if you happen to be listening at home on Spotify or watching on Spotify, don't forget to subscribe and give us a like rate the episode rate the podcast, 5 stars. It helps us out a ton. If you're watching on YouTube, you know, hit do the three things like comment, subscribe. 1:22:29 If you want to do a fourth thing, ring the bell, get the notifications, you know, tell us if you want some more of our stuff. So I think that's about it, right, Sean? Yep. Thank you Alex for joining. We appreciate your time and both you and Bernadette have been absolute pleasures to have on the podcast. So very. 1:22:45 Excited to promote this. Thank you. It's so great to connect with you guys and we got to get out and play golf again soon, whether it's in Arizona or San Diego. Most definitely. You tell me when you're in town. I will thank you besides this weekend. Yeah, besides this weekend. Thanks, Alex. Goodbye guys. © 2025 Spotify AB Legal Privacy Cookies