0:10 Hey listeners. TJ and I are joined today by golf photographer Brian Orr, whose world renowned work has been published in Golf Digest, Golf Weekly and all the other magazines and journals. He's here to help us evaluate the Phoenician golf course as we put it up to the Must Play test. How will this Scottsdale course fare? 0:25 Stay tuned to find out. Brian, we're excited to have you join us today to evaluate one of the Valley's most iconic courses, The Phoenician. So welcome to Must Play. Thanks man, I appreciate you having me on. Yeah, we're so excited to have you on. I I'm a fan of what you've put out there. I spent way too long looking at your site and I even showed my wife because we were blown away by some of the night shots that we'll talk about in just a moment. 0:48 But that's some really good work. Thank you, appreciate it. It's been a long Rd. That's my first question. So maybe what got you into this or I guess like what's the background on how you got started? Well, I mean it, it's definitely a long story, but I, I started playing golf as a kid and then, and then kind of dropped off through my teenage years, But we, I, I hadn't even touched the ball into from probably maybe 14 to 19 and so kind of dropped out of it. 1:24 But we owned a snowboard company. We started the snowboard company very early on in the, in the, in the snowboard rush. And so my brother and I owned a snowboard company and with some other partners and a couple other guys, and our shop was close, like 2 minutes from a cool golf course in, in, in Salt Lake. 1:45 And we built all of our boards in the summer. So we would work from 7:00 AM till about two. And then we were like, everybody's kind of over it. And like one of the guys was like, hey, man, you want to go golf? I'm like, yeah, yeah. So anyways, Long story short, I started taking a little digital camera that we had for our snowboard company along to this golf course. 2:07 And I started taking a few pictures and I was like, hey, you know what, I'm going to start a website and I'm just going to post these pictures on this website. And so that kind of turned into me doing dumb course profiles with A4 Meg camera. And yeah, and it just was like something that I did 'cause I was like, I don't know, I just wanted to do it. 2:28 And then I happened to be my, we, we grew up in Saint George. I went to high school in Saint George. My mom moved down here and there was a new course in Mesquite called Falcon Ridge that was just opening. And I was like, I called him up and I said, hey, do you mind if I come down and do a a couple of shots to your golf course? 2:46 And the guy said, yeah, no problem. So anyways, I go shoot a couple of shots for this. And they turned out. I mean, I look back at them now and they're awful, but yeah. I was going to say, your first gig, did you have a little nerves going into it to make sure? I'll tell, I'll tell you another story as soon as this, this, this will lead into it. 3:03 So I take this photo of this golf course and it, it they, they love it. Anyways, I thought it was great too at the time. And so through that, out of the blue, I get a call from the art director of Vegas Golfer magazine and he says, hey, we want to use your photo on the cover of this next magazine. 3:24 And are you interested in in shooting for us more? He said we that we love your work. It's great. And I was like, yeah, OK. And they're like, they're like, well, how much do you charge? And I said, how much do you pay quick? Google. Yeah, so they, they, the, the going rate was 1600 bucks for the cover and then they signed me to shoot every call, every course in Las Vegas. 3:51 Oh wow. Wow, Was IA photographer? No. Did I become a photographer in that moment? Yes. Yes. Yeah. So it was just one of those things where like I just was started doing and it just happened to pan out. I loved it. I always loved being on the golf course, like early and late playing golf at that time. 4:10 And then I always loved like the just the, the, the compositions of what you would see in those kinds of light. And that's kind of where everything came from. So through all of that, I got gained a ton of experience and better equipment and a little bit of cash flow. 4:26 And The funny thing, this sort of good to go back to your your point there, what was my, you know, first, first gig? So I get that deal through Vegas golfer magazine and the first three courses they have me shoot are Rio Seca, Cascada and Bears best. 4:43 And so I mean talk about pressure. Tell me you didn't take that same camera to those courses. No, I had a different camera. I had a new camera, yeah, and it was a much better camera, but it still was like, it was a Sony R1, which was like kind of a mid. It's all I could afford. 4:59 It was like kind of a mid level, but it was a nice camera and it was good enough. And that's really all I needed. They loved how it worked and, and my pictures got way better through all of that. But I show up to the first gig at Rio Seiko and I'm nervous as hell. And so they give me a cart and it's early in the morning and I haven't seen the golf course yet. 5:18 And I start going backwards down the golf course, which is a bad thing to do because cart paths are not designed to go backwards. So anyways I'm coming down this hill and I'm looking at this hole and all of a sudden I turned down 16 and I don't even know what happened. Turned left on 16, the cart kept going and it smashed into the wall. 5:37 Boom the whole front tires go Bing, the cart explodes and my camera goes flying and I go flying out and break my pinky. Oh my. God. It was terrible. It was such AI mean. 5:52 It was terrible. I felt, I felt like such an idiot. But I mean, you know that that's just kind of the weird thing. Luckily, the photos that I got from that, even though I was hurt, even though they were kind of pissed at me, and even though like I had broken a lens, but I had another lens, the the photos I got there were great. 6:16 Like they were really good. They were like, wow, these are the best we've ever seen at this golf course. And so they kind of forgave me. And the the publisher of the magazine just called me and he's like, dude, did you really crash a cart every other second? Can you please not? Yeah, he's like, look, man, we love your work, but don't crash any more cards. 6:36 So I'm like, dude, I'm so sorry. Like that was such a freak thing, but yeah, crazy. Sorry, kind of a rambling long story, but yeah man, I just kind of did it. It's wild how like life throws you those and you don't know that you'll be heading that direction. 6:51 You look back and you're like, had I not just done that one thing, it never would. Have and, and through all of that and then just just by doing that kind of stuff, I met people out of the blue that were connected in the golf industry yeah, I met another guy through snowboarding who was a golf rider and he was a golf rider that connected me to multiple other magazines and PR companies, which then got me onto FAM trips and I travelled all over the world on fams just schlepping my way through you know and so. 7:30 That is the one thing that has been as we've got we're, we're approaching our our like second year of doing the podcast and second year of doing social media. And the underlying theme I continue to see through everything is just networking overall in the Gulf space. 7:47 And I think a lot of people just like don't have necessarily that business acumen or don't necessarily understand that like you can get so far in this thing and do so much just by networking alone with people. Like we just had a guy out here in San Diego get a job with a golf company because he met them through social media and connected with them. 8:10 And then they were like, hey, we're hiring for this role. We think you'd be a great fit for it. You just started working there like. It's even, it's even easier now. Maybe it's not easier, but there's just so much more opportunity. Like, I mean, jeez, when I started, the Internet was barely a thing. And, you know, I was still doing print magazines. 8:27 We were still doing, you know, print. It's all print media. I mean, nobody really cared. A website. OK, yeah, we whatever, right? There was no such thing as social media. Hasn't even been thought of when we started. When I started. You know what I mean? So definitely. Came up through the ranks of print media and magazines and and you know, I just I just tried to emulate the the great golf course photographers that I admired. 8:52 A lady, a woman called her name is Joanne dose she, she's in Pebble Beach. She's fantastic. Steven Serrill, she shot for Golf Digest Forever. Aiden Bradley, some of the older, you know, and I just thought those guys work was so fantastic. 9:10 He just tried to emulate kind of what they did in the in the courses that I had access to. Yeah. Did you Speaking of the tech evolving, I know like one of the things that you I think coined golf illuminated, right is yeah, taking advantage of drones, lights on the drones and essentially like think about tech moving forward, right? 9:30 Like you're these shots are incredible. I don't know if you can give a little bit more background or inspiration behind the golf illuminate part of your photography. No, I have to kill you after that. You put on the site. Yeah, so I mean it. I mean, I like, this is my 23rd year shooting golf. 9:48 And so I've gotten to the point where, you know, I, I feel like even even more so now there's a lot of people out there that, you know, get the opportunity to shoot a great golf course in good light. 10:04 And you can be 1/2 assed idiot and take a good golf course of a, a good photo of, you know, with a drone or a camera if you kind of know what you're looking for. So that, that's not really my point, though. My point is, is that I feel like I got to the point where I feel like I'm only as good as my last shoot and as good as the golf course is. 10:25 And so I tried to figure out like, what is going to separate Brian or in the grand scheme of things from anybody else? Am I just another golf course photographer that's going to get generally forgot about? Like, like even these guys that I looked up to are not even really shooting anymore. 10:43 So what am I going to do? Like what, what, what can I do that is like new. And so at the time I was following, I mean, I was just messing around with me. I've been drone pilots since they came out. And I had just noticed like a couple of other photographers that were in the golf space doing cool things with drones. 11:06 And so I was like, hey, I think I could do this. I have no idea if I can or I can't. And I, I just went out one night, rigged up a bunch of stuff and tried it. And yeah, the first couple of times were jacked up and kind of scary. 11:22 And, and I, I think I even crashed the drone the first time I tried it 'cause, you know, it's dark, you can't see. The camera doesn't pick up and it's not like you can, it's not like you can see. So like, you know, and it just has been trial and error on that. 11:39 Now I've gotten pretty darn good at it and I've got a pretty good, pretty good like idea of even before it gets dark. I know I've picked a spot, I know where I'm going to shoot it from. I know what I want it to look like. But yeah, I mean, they've become really, really cool. 11:55 I I think that the problem now is that everybody thinks it's AI because they don't quite know what they're looking at. Like even you guys would be probably when you first saw it, you're like, what the hell is that? You know, like, wait a minute, that's a golf hole. 12:11 That's that's at night. And so a lot of people think that it is AI and I just have to be like, well, no, it's it's all done photographically. And yeah, I mean, that's my thing. I'm going to try and do a book out of it. And I've been trying to collect enough enough of them to make a cool book. 12:30 Nice. Yeah, I mean, you know the processing. Piece is a bigger discussion I think that's coming for more than just photography that's. It is, it's coming. It's just coming for all of all of photography. It's just so like easy to like make some great looking photo without even you know, doing it. 12:48 But. There's. Something to be said for for for innovating. I mean, how much more can you innovate in the golf space? I really don't know what's possible. I mean, I feel like that might be me doing that. The you know, nobody ever done anything like that. 13:04 I. Mean I've done it in some insane places too like I mean like we did a couple of holes abandoned. I didn't done TPC Dansante Bay Cabo. I bought a bunch of these crazy golf holes that like you can't, it's not like you guys couldn't call up one of the golf courses and be like, hey, we're going to go out on your golf course at 11:00 at night and we're going to shoot a hole. 13:28 They'd be like, wait a minute. So it's been fun to do. And then I and the courses are starting to catch on like I've gotten hired now specifically because the the course was like, dude, your guys, your night work is amazing. 13:46 We got to do that. I saw the Quivira and I saw, I don't know if it's been Sante Bay or another one that you had done, but obviously, like the cliffs on the ocean or green and Quivira, like right there. It's incredible to see. I'm always curious. 14:02 We talked to Scott Brooks. I don't know if you know him. PNW, yeah. I met Scott in Saint Lucia. Oh, really? For Kevin. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. And he, he was like, he was like, yeah, it's funny because he was like, he was like super stoked that I was going to come and he didn't know that I was going to be there. 14:21 And he, he was working at the golf course and he was like, no way. You're Brian Orr. Like, yeah. And, and he's like, dude, your work's amazing. And I, I, I even thought his work was his work's great. Oh, his work's amazing and I, I adore that part of the country that he does a lot of his work in. 14:39 So it's did. He did he move back to the States because he was living in Saint Lucia for a while. Yeah, he's in Portland. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, we, we had him on the do Elk Ridge, one of the courses along the Columbia River, which we were talking about Golden Hour and all those things as well. 14:55 But I was curious, So like, are there things that are maybe a little more subtle or unobvious than a cliffside on the ocean or a rock feature in a desert course? Something that makes a course maybe photograph well, but people wouldn't think that's a natural thing to look for. 15:13 Like for example, I sometimes when I see courses that have unique pin flags or something that just brings out the course amongst the noise. Is there anything else that you think when you come to a course and you see that like, oh, that might shoot really well? 15:29 There's a lot, there's a lot that goes into that. I mean, it depends on the architectural design and the and the the landscape around the golf course. I mean, if it's a tree lined course, what are you going to get? You're going to get trees. Right. So what else are you going to look at? You know, there better be something interesting to look at in terms of like bunkering or shape or, you know, some other aspect of like, you know, architectural design points that, you know, make it an interesting shot. 15:57 Nobody wants to see a straight fairway 2 kidney bunkers in a grief they just dumped, you know. And then sadly, there's a billion golf courses like that. There's so many golf websites where that's like the featured photo. Yeah, and so, you know, but like Black Desert, take a pick. 16:17 Yeah. Like if you can't take a good photo out there, what are you doing? Yeah, exactly. So it all just depends on location and and light is huge. You can you can Polish a turd with good light. That's what I remember. 16:34 I remember Scott talked about that too, where he was like, if you, if you happen to go out with me early in the morning and you don't want me as a partner in your match because there's, there's going to be a chance that I'm going to sneak off and skip a good five holes just taking photos because the lighting's so good. 16:51 Like I I can't pass up that opportunity. And I won't even I don't even do that anymore. Like I won't, I won't cause for that reason because I just can't get my head off of it. Like if I go play, I'm going to play. I might take a camera with me, but maybe might take one or two shots if I get something amazing and and if it's the only thing I can do, then that would be I would do that. 17:15 But generally I'm going to go shoot and then I'll play real quick before we. I love them both. Yeah. So I was going to say real quick before we transition to the course, last thing to you, top three courses that you've shot. Oh my gosh, you knew, I get this question. 17:32 So, OK, so I live right next to Black Desert in sand Hollow, but I, I get a little bit complacent about those because I live right here. But you guys, you'd be like, whoa, like, Oh my gosh, this is like we're playing on the planet. 17:49 I, I kind of always go back to the Nebraska courses. Anything in the Sandhills is just unbelievably cool to shoot. The two courses of Prairie Club, Cap Rock Ranch, Sandhills, Dismal River Club, Bayside. 18:07 Anything in the Sandhills is just spectacular. The valley Neal, you know, the new rodeo dunes courses are going to be amazing. And so there's, there's, there's 2 has a third. Gosh, I mean, you know, any time you go to to Scotland and you see anything different, especially especially big time links courses, yeah, you're, you're going to be wowed because the architecture and the playability is so different. 18:37 Like, you know, like World Dornik, Barora, Nairn Castle Stewart is one of my favorite golf courses in the world. Kings Barnes is absolutely incredible. And it's just such a different golf, like it's so those kinds of links courses are so tricky. 18:59 I mean, it's not American golf. It just does not play like that. Hold on. I mean, so I got another one too. I mean, get the course. 2 courses at Gamble Sands now are two of my favorites in the world. Tobacco Rd. is one of my favorite places. Have you played Scarecrow yet up there? Yep, a bunch of times. How is it we were supposed to go but we wound up not doing the trip? 19:16 Amazing. Totally different than the other golf course, but yet still incredibly fun. There's holes that will kick your ass and there's holes that will give you eagle opportunities. And that's what they're all about. They want you to have an easy bogey but a very difficult birdie, you know, and and that's kind of like a good way to do it. 19:37 You know, if you hit two good shots, yeah, you could have shot at eagle, but it's not going to punish you beyond, beyond, you know, unless there's like, obviously you can make a golf hole hard in a park, but just depends on what you've dealt, you know? Yeah, well, he's also such a good architect. 19:54 He makes Putter seem like a interesting choice even from like 40 yards off the green on a lot. Of his scores or like bump and run seven, yeah. Yeah. Everywhere, yeah. It's just so much fun to play shots like that. And that's why I said Scotland, because you're playing such a different Lynxy Golf. 20:11 Like I played strictly Hickories for 12 years. What? As your main? As your main bag. Yeah, all pre 1920. No shit. Yeah. And so. Sorry, this this I swear this podcast is about Venezia. Yeah, sorry. We'll give it to you. Yeah. 20:28 We'll get there, We're good. There'll be time. Stamps. There's there's time stamps and chapters for that stuff. So yeah, me and my friends have played played Hickories for 12 years exclusively. And so when you play Hickories, you're not playing an aerial attack game. No, not at all. 20:44 You're. Playing try to find center of the face. You're, yeah, you're playing position, you're playing good contact and you're playing running shots. That's all there. Is yeah, what we were talking about. I don't know if you've ever heard of Goat Hill up in Oceanside on track, but to break the course record there, I think, TJ, don't you have to play Hickory's in order to compete for the record? 21:07 Yeah, the course record has to be completed. On Hickory's so that's. Awesome. You've got so you, I mean you've got out here in San Diego, you have the guys from Power built are out here. So you get a lot of those guys who still play the old power built Hickory stuff. Trevor Larson of Larson Golf Co, I think just shot his career low out at Rams, which is also very similar. 21:30 To links ish. Style golf. And he did, he shot his career low on Hickory's like and he, he has 2 bags and he shot his career low on Hickory's. And I was like, yeah, Rams is the same type of golf course that you talk about there where it's, it's high risk, high reward, where you, you can play position and have good looks at eagles out there. 21:47 Yeah, and that golf course is like that too. Yeah, if if you don't get it super windy and you can your and your and you get a good swing dealt deal. You can, you can score on that golf course and playing Hickory's. You know, you, you power doesn't work in Hickory's it it helps, but you're not out there swinging out of your shoes. 22:07 You're out there swinging 70% and just trying to, you know, get yourself manage your way around the golf course and and because power doesn't doesn't really work. Yeah. Yeah, OK. I think it's time to transition back to the desert here. 22:23 Before we do though, we actually have a new sponsor from us play Devereaux Golf, who we're going to hear from right now. Yeah. So I just wanted to take a quick second to thank our new sponsor of the podcast, Devereaux Golf. They're an Arizona based family owned golf apparel and accessories company that Sean and I have been huge fans of from afar. 22:40 But now we're excited to be officially partnered with. They're going to be sponsoring us. We're going to be wearing them on the podcast. They're going to be giving all of you guys a 20% off discount code for the So you're going to head over to devereuxgolf.com. I'm going to spell it out for you. It's a little tough. It's DEVEREU xgolf.com and use code Fair wagers 20 to get 20% off your order today. 23:01 All right, let's transition over to today's course, The Phoenician, which is an iconic course here in Scottsdale, AZ TJ Icon, let's start with you. You grew up around Scottsdale, just like myself. I'm curious for you, maybe not back to your first time playing it, but like what comes to mind when you think about The Phoenician? 23:19 I mean, first and foremost, it it hits you right in the teeth. It's got a great practice facility. I, I can't remember if it's the actual pyramids of balls or the the wooden baskets of balls, but it if you have me right away, as soon as you're going to give me free range balls and not charge me. 23:39 I very also distinctly remember when I picked up game the first time around in my life, the game of golf, and I would sneak out to the range at the Phoenician to go hit balls because I knew that they were free. And I knew that it was far enough away from like the the clubhouse and the pro shop. 23:55 And you could park your car kind of by the backside of the parking garage and kind of just walk over there. And then you always had this fake story in the back of your head that if somebody came over and asked you, you'd be like, oh, yeah, yeah. No, I, I'm in room 347, but we're staying here with my family. I just wanted to come down and beat some balls, you know, I mean, also, it's just outside of the practice facility. 24:16 I guess it, there's always like the allure of this full 18 hole golf course that just sits in the middle of the Paradise Valley, Scottsdale border. As a native growing up there, the amount of times you hike Camelback Mountain and look down upon the golf course, they're like, oh man, there's like a golf course like kind of carved into this mountainside here. 24:37 Like this is, this is super cool. Like it's a super cool place for a golf course. The same kind of goes for for Mountain Shadows to a little lesser extent that the Phoenician is a full 18 hole par 72 golf course that is just in the side of the mountain that's in the side of the city. 24:53 So it it kind of just wows you from that aspect just right off the top of the bat. And it definitely showcases that on some of the holes as well. Those are those are initial things that really like jump out. Yeah. Typically the courses carved in the mountain are private, so being able to play. 25:10 A hole that you can see from the top. It's a bonus. Yeah, I'm trying to think of another one that's that's really like public accessible that like is right on the mountains like. No, you do any of the North Scottsdale ones and besides you know maybe Troon or somewhere else like. 25:25 Sure, I was going. To say Troon a little. Bit a little bit, like on the side of the mountain. Yeah. And on the side of the mountain. Sorry, man. My dogs just keep going in and out. I'm gonna have to just cut this. Come on in dude. What's the dog's name? His name is Magnus and he's a very insecure Aussie. 25:43 Oh. Magnus. Great name for a dog. He's a good boy. Yeah. So how about you grind? Any like pros and cons or like highlights for you that come to mind? For for Phoenician. Yeah. Well, I think that coming from the original 27 holes to seeing what Phil did and and and the reason why they did it, I feel like the changes that he made to bring a new Golf course to them were fantastic for what they had to work with in some very constrained land. 26:25 So that it's not like you could change the routing much. You know I'm trying to, you know, you remember those whole what do? You think was the reason he did it you you kind of alluded to it. The reason why they did it? Yeah, from 27 down to 18 again. Well, I mean money. 26:45 Because they're building residences and all those new long terms. I don't. Know how much money of real estate they've sold along those holes? But it's got to be a lot. I didn't know if you had like some Altrus like reason that they were trying to go for continuity on the course or something like that because that's how they fill it. 27:02 I I bet there's probably some longer answer, but I mean, you know, the hotel obviously was a key point to it. And I just don't think that a 27 hole golf course really like gains you anything. It just it all it does is is create work and and on on very valuable land that I don't know, man. 27:22 At the time they were only charging well. Max green for you was maybe 120 bucks, maybe 150 Max. Yeah, I remember getting like a a pretty decent deal back in the day playing all three nines and it was like $75.00 in, you know, May where it's a little warm and I was like, this is crazy to. 27:44 Think that I'm. Playing the Phoenician for under 100. Yeah, So the money like they weren't like killing it on the golf course, not to mention they had high maintenance costs and water like water is an issue like so I I almost think that water might be the biggest component to that. 28:01 And they were probably looking at it going, hey, Phil, give us a land plan that that and, and, and tell us how much we can make and like a couple 100 million or should we keep doing this? Well, yeah, let's do that and, and improve the golf course and give ourselves a new irrigation system. 28:19 It was probably a very ageing irrigation system as well. It probably was totally antiquated and probably was going to blow up at any given point. So now I don't know that for a fact. But you know, again to the to the point is that from seeing it from the the 27 holes, which were OK. 28:41 I mean, there was up there on the hill, there was that cool par three that shot out and then there was a couple of cool holes that played along the mountain that went back up towards the hotel. Other than that, it was kind of back and forth over there on that side, you know, and I, I want to say that the practice range was not there. 29:02 The practice range was down where one is but but I can't. Before 2018? You mean when the Winfield redid the course? Before the renovation, do you? Where was the practice range when you were talking about when you were? It was there. I think it, I think it was where it's where it still is today. 29:17 Was it still right there? It might be. But it wasn't as big. They they extended the range and they extended the shortcut area as well. Yeah, because they only had to have two holes there, which I think used to be like 4. I think it used to be like 4. I mean, maybe even five holes it. Was yeah, like all those, all those residences that are just a little bit beyond that kind of circulate around 8:00 and 9:00, those are all brand new residents. 29:42 Those used to be golf poles like we. Thought it was golf holes, like five holes, maybe more. I can't even, I can't remember. I have photos of it. I have photos of it being a pre pre. And I remember a couple of the holes were like these tight dog legs and then a par 3 and another dog leg and another par 3 and kind of another cool hole that was shot down. 29:59 Like I think it was the 9th on that nine that's shot down by the hotel. It had like a it's all surrounded by sand. I think it was. It's a cool hole. Yeah. So anyways, I mean, you know, they hired me to do the renovation work when it just before it opened in 2018 and I thought it was fantastic. 30:19 I was like, wow, this is great. This is way better. You know? Oh, so you you were hired to do the shoot for the, of course, once it reopened. Yes. Oh, I didn't know that. OK, so I talked about this in my history section coming up here, but I didn't have you. I didn't know that, so that's nice. 30:35 Yeah, and I did the photography work when it opened in 2018 and they loved it. Phil loved it. And that's actually How I Met Phil and and how I ended up getting the Black Desert job. Wow. Isn't that weird? Yeah. Networking at its finest. 30:52 To your point about 27 holes like the advantage that this is not a reason for a course to have it. This is a personal thing, but some courses out here like Ocotillo that have 27 holes, the overseed period in the valley here, it's an advantage because they do that nine, they keep 18 open and they make bank essentially. 31:12 And they're. Like, hey, we're not car path only right now, don't worry about it. Come play. And I flock to those courses during the overseed season. But that's not a reason obviously to to. Offset. Especially what they're making money on. They would, you know, pluses and minuses, that's for sure. 31:30 You know, I think that I almost think to, I, I, I don't know this for a fact, but the golf course is more of an amenity for the hotel. Yeah, most definitely. The resort has so much going for it, which I'm going to cover here in just a moment. It's such a big time, big time resort, 5 star hotel. 31:46 Oh, it's what is that too? Presidents, celebrities, it's luxury right in the middle of town. You know, it's newer than the Biltmore. So like the Biltmore was trying to do this and this essentially has become more famous. I I would say in that that area. 32:05 Sean, what about you? Do you have any, you have any pros and cons, anything that we didn't touch on there? I have listed out stuff we'll cover in the test, but something that may not come in the test is I really like the feel of the front and back nine being separate from what currently the 18 is. 32:24 I almost had this as a con where I was like, it feels disjointed, right? And, and then the more I think about it, the more I'm like, I'm getting the views from the back 9. So if I take people from out of town, I'm like, I'll wait till you get to the back nine, you're going to see some crazy views of the, of the valley. 32:40 But if I think about the holes that I like more, it's the front 9. I like the front 9 hole layouts more than I like the back 9 because the back nine has some like switch backs almost where it just kind of feels repetitive in the middle. And I actually started to think about that. And I'm like, I do like that actually, because it gives me the feel that I'm getting more than eighteen holes of golf. 32:58 I'm getting 2 completely different experiences for the same. 100% fully agree. It's it's, it's very similar to like what we talked about with Quarry Pines, where the front 9 is your traditional target desert style golf. And then the almost the whole back nine, it's just down in the quarry and you're like, feel like I went to an entirely different golf course after the term. 33:16 Yeah, yeah, it really does feel like that. And I think that, I mean, I was just going to say that I, I, I feel like the holes that probably bothered me the most back then were the holes in the front nine that were just surrounded by real estate. Yeah. 33:32 But but Phil did a fantastic job with those holes, making them interesting, making the bunkering, you know, a strategic and really kind of giving them the those frontline holes, a sense of identity compared to this wow factor of the back line. 33:49 Totally, Yeah. Anytime the courses out here in the Valley or in Scottsdale have the crazy views, if the coarse quality like the challenge of the whole or you feel like you're getting like good shot value matches the views, the price tag is astronomical. 34:06 Of course. Yeah, and Phoenician, although the price has gone up and one of my cons is that it is now fairly pricey to go play Phoenician for a long period of time there. It felt like the best value for what you were going to try and get at North Scottsdale. You were going to get similar experience, better views in my opinion, and it was in the heart of Old Town, like right there. 34:27 So you're going to go book a trip of guys somewhere. This is the course, 'cause you can just literally, you know, take Scooter there if you really wanted to. It's so close to Old Town. Never did that by the way, but it's so easy to. You know, the service and the and the the clubhouse and the service and the resort is spot on. 34:45 They do a good job. They know what they're doing. It feels high end and and it and it is, you know, yeah, it's, it's fantastic. Yes, it's got real estate, but. Yeah. I've never really felt and actually they, you know, they they've done a 18 used to be kind of an oddity. 35:07 It's still a little bit of an oddity, but it's way better than it was. And the, you know, again, the whole real estate that they sold down the right hand side, you know, that was the whole point is like, yeah, we've got to do something with this golf hole because it used to just be, I think it was like a vacant lot. 35:29 It was. Yeah, it was just, it was just dirt, wasn't it, that that ran all the way down Camelback? Yeah, No, no, on the right side of 18 you're. Talking on the right hand side, Yeah, right hand side of 18. Across the water on the other side of the. OK, now I know what. You're saying, yeah, it was like this, like plot. 35:45 Yeah. And so they hadn't done anything with that. And so that kind of brought all that into play. And they they did do some things, although they didn't change the lakes. I don't think they they. Brought in more. Water before 2018. So there's, it's, there's been a couple renovations on this course. 36:02 Yeah, yeah, there has. But anyways, I think that they that that hole got a little bit better with. I can't remember exactly the changes that they made there, but got a little bit better. Yeah, well, I've been alluding to the history here. How about we jump in, I maybe educate you guys. 36:17 You guys already know a lot, but maybe I can fill in some gaps. OK, I'm gonna start with and I'm I looked at the pronunciation here, Jokoki, Jokoki in Have you guys heard of that? Yes, I. Know that. 36:34 I recall the street very much. The street that goes into Phoenician's Jokoki Rd. as well. Yeah, OK, so the Phoenix areas resort industry can chase some of its roots to the base of Camelback Mountain, just inside the grounds of the Phoenician in Scottsdale present day. 36:49 That was where a Pueblo Revival style building, the last surviving piece of the Jokaki Inn, stood for nearly a century. So the land where the building now stands once held a small frame house owned by painter Jesse Ben Evans. Her son Robert and daughter-in-law Sylvia built an Adobe house for their family on the property in 1926. 37:09 As the story goes, a Hopi boy saw workers mixing Adobe for the structure and named it Jokaki, which actually means mud House. So that year, Sylvia began hosting tea parties of the residence. In the following year, the idea grew into a larger operation and became the Jokaki Inn in 1928. 37:27 So the inn expanded over the years, quickly became synonymous with outdoor adventure, art, Southwestern cuisine and relaxation, hosting many famous celebrities at the time, such as Frank Lloyd Wright and members of the Rockefeller and Vanderbilt families. And the Jakaki Inn operated under Sylvia until the 1950s, when Chicago hotelier Charles Alberting bought it and continued operating it as a hotel until the late 70s. 37:52 And most of its buildings were demolished. But the bell tower still stands today at the Phoenician. You probably, if you look at the Phoenician, you'll see these two towers. That was the original structure from the Jakaki Inn that survived. So I think they do. Go ahead, I was. 38:07 Going to say sorry finish what you were saying. I have more history to come and say. That building's still there. They do weddings in it now. Yes, they do. Yep. Yeah, it's iconic. So it's been there since the early 1900s, essentially. I got a really cool photo of a. Is it 16? 38:23 Yeah, sixteens right there. And that building sits right to the side of 16. Yep. So everything else was demolished, but they kept that. So how did the Phoenician come to be? So in 1985, Charles Keating had a vision to build a multi $1,000,000 luxury resort that would display the elegance and sophistication of Europe, standing out as a sparkling gem in the snoring desert. 38:43 He wanted this to look anything but native to the area, so he purchased the land at the base of Camelback as it was the most recognizable location in the valley and had dramatic views of the city skyline. To build this palace, though, he had to purchase the Jakakki Inn and three other properties including the Valley Country Club. 39:00 A course forgotten to time that literally is impossible to go find history on except for a Facebook group called You knew you grew up in Scottsdale, wind dot dot dot and it had amazing comments about their times here at the valley Country Club. But this course actually would serve as the bones for the first Phoenician. 39:19 So the Phoenician Golf Club actually opened in 81 before the resort was opened and it was designed as Eighteen holes on the bones of Valley Country Club by Jack Snyder. It went around Camelback Mountain and it actually did 45,000 rounds just a couple years after it opened in 1981. 39:37 The resort, however, opened for business in 1988 and the hotel initially had 600 rooms, 132 casitas, AVIP suite and a presidential suite and it hosted many presidents who've come over the years. The Dome in the hotel's lobby was covered with 24 karat gold. 39:54 It had a cactus garden with over 250 varieties, making it the second largest one in the state. Basically, Keating was trying to tick all the boxes of media is going to eat all this up. However, if you know anything about Keating, you'll know that he was indicted in 1989 for his role in the savings and loan crisis, and after its seizure, the government briefly ran the resort, at which time the Phoenician became known as Club Fed. 40:24 It's time for you here, TJ. What other Arizona course we've reviewed on Must Play was liquidated and sold as a result of Keating's scandal? Oh, was it Greyhawk? No, it was Corey Pines. It was Corey. No way it was Corey Pines. 40:41 Corey Pines and Phoenician at the exact same time. Basically got turned over to the Fed. Wow, wild, right? Many other stuff too. I mean, yeah, I'm sure that list goes on. Yeah, so the government sold it shortly after to the Kuwaiti investment office, who actually had a 45% stake in the Phoenician and just bought the other 55%. 41:01 Then they sold it to Sheraton years later, who sold it to host hotels and resorts. And between all those changing hands, the course went through various renovations. So only 12 years after it opened, it underwent a $3.5 million renovation by Homer Flint in 1993. 41:18 Flint added water, sand, palm trees and a bunch of stuff, and he also redesigned five holes. Then just two years later in 95, the resort acquired even more land. And they asked Ted Robinson, senior, to go create nine more holes, taking the course of 27. 41:33 And they named each 9, Desert, Canyon and Oasis nine. Another question for you here, TJ. What San Diego course did we just review that Ted Robinson also renovated? Ted Robinson is RBN. Yeah, correct. 41:48 Rancho Bernardo in Good for you when? Did they recently do that, do that again, or did RBI? Did Rancho Bernardo go through another renovation in the last 10 years? I. Don't have to go back and check my function then. 42:05 Yeah, I don't think so. I don't. Think so. No, I don't, no. Yeah, I shot there too. All good. So just wrapping it up. So in 2018, essentially, the resort brought in Phil Smith and Brian Orr to do the photography and reconfigured the golf course back into eighteen holes of play for a more cohesive round. 42:24 But we all know the real reason was money to build all the new residences in the. Real estate. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. Yeah, less water, less maintenance. Yeah. Make it, make it make it 18 great holes rather than I don't know if they were 27 holes were pretty good. 42:41 I thought there were some cool. Holes. But there were some fun holes on the 9:00 that got killed or some of the nine that got killed over on the. Mountain there, but again, I mean looking at those numbers and you'd be like. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of the 27 hole courses in Arizona have started to go down like this. 42:57 Didn't Starfire go down to 18 too, Sean yes, or start, start. So, so same thing, right? Like it has to feel like it's just also really not sustainable to continue to do despite the the brief periods during overseed and maintenance season. 43:13 But that probably has to. That can't really outweigh what it's going through the rest. Hard to hard to say if that actually balances the books. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I don't know how much you guys know in terms of agronomy, but man, it is so expensive for running golf course. 43:28 Well, we talked about Ambiente, they over at Camelback Golf Club not far from Venetian, and they saved millions of dollars when they brought in blank on the guy's name that came in and redid the whole course for agronomy and irrigation essentially to make it more native. So. Our golf course is great too. 43:45 But yeah, I mean, it's just, but you know, especially those courses have to oversee, you know, they can't, they really can't not oversee or the grass just won't grow. Yeah. So I mean, there's some other opportunities and some other alternatives, but not when you're built like that with Bermuda based golf. 44:03 Yeah, yeah. I mean, not to mention just water is just exhaustively expensive in in Arizona. Yes. OK. So I don't really have much else on the history here. I was just going to basically say the resort is amazing, but we'll see how the course stands up to our must play test. 44:20 So we're about to find out. But before we get into the test, we're here once again from our sponsor, Devro Golf. So yeah, just wanted to give a quick shout out to the crew over at Devro Golf. They just dropped this new high country collection and from what I can tell, Sean and I both have equally been living in this since we got our hands on it. Sean, what have you been rocking with lately? 44:37 I'm wearing the Trouble out West T-shirt and I have the hat that honestly both of them are super comfortable and the designs on this new collection are something that are more up my alley. And it's something that you can wear on the course or even out to dinner. And honestly, my wife's happy I have something else to wear on date night. Oh, absolutely. 44:52 The new polos that they came out with are like a new nice, more like textured fabric and they're not your traditional like four way stretch that's kind of clingy. Like, it definitely looks like you might actually be saving these shorts more for date night than you would actually for the golf course. So if you want to get your hands on some, you're going to head over to devrogolf.com. 45:12 I'll spell it out again. It's DEVEREU xgolf.com. We'll have it down in the description for you in case you didn't pick up on that. But just make sure that you use code fair wagers 20 to get 20% off your orders all the time. OK, let's get into the must play test. 45:27 So TJ and I have devised an objective test here of 10 questions to determine if the golf course is a must play, which Brian just you mentioned that briefly. You've been part of many lists essentially, especially in other magazines that have ranked courses. TJ and I have done a test here where we were trying to write the whole experience at the course. 45:43 That includes everything from the food, the vibes, the practice facilities, the pace of play, things like that, right? Our goal here is to basically say if you're coming into town or you're hosting someone in town, is this course one of the must plays? So to earn a must play status, they have to score a six out of 10 or higher to be up for debate or get a 7 out of 10 or higher to automatically earn our coveted must play status. 46:07 So question one, the Augusta test. Is this course easy to get a tee time on? Does it have a straightforward booking process? And are there times available the week of your intended play? Now I'll start with this answer here, TJ, because I'm still living out here locally. I can get on here as a twosome. 46:25 I, I don't look as a foursome that often, but as a twosome, I can still find a time generally the same week of play. However, I'm going to pay a pretty penny for that time, right? And we'll talk about price in just a little bit in the test, but I think that has to do with the availability. 46:44 I just think that you look at this price and then you look at courses around and you're like there's some other options out here and maybe that's why there's still some tee times. We've, we've talked about this at nauseam before where a lot of times if you pass the Augusta test, you failed the next test on the on the price of the course. 47:02 And sometimes they are almost directly correlated. There's a ton of availability because the price is unjustified or too much for what it is. The one thing I will say, actually, I'll leave that for the next part. So yeah, I do, I do think they're correlated. I think I had the Augusta test as a pass looks. 47:19 Like I have it as a pass. It's like on I, I looked at, I looked at Saturday for this week and you can pretty much book during any hour on Saturday at tea time. So like that's, that's near impossible here in San Diego any weekend. 47:39 Of the year. Let alone Arizona. Really high quality for a good quality golf course. For a really good golf course too. That's, that's The thing is that generally with with courses that are this nice or this highly coveted, the availability's a little dry. But for here on a Saturday you could play it 73930113230 like there was, it was all there. 48:02 Yeah. Brian, do you want to weigh in? Are you a pass or fail for this one or do you want to defer? Well, I mean, I would personally say that it's probably a solid hidden gem for sure. Like, you know, just like you're saying you can, you can get a tee time, it's not crazy expensive. 48:20 The golf is good. The plane conditions after overseas are always spot on. They're oversee. Every oversee I've seen from them is pretty darn good, especially by late October and early November. They're yeah, they're coming out of it right now. 48:37 If I had a bone to pick with conditions that their greens are generally slower than others in the valley, but that's because they let it grow longer and then you essentially get deeper into the season, you get really fast greens. Yeah, I guess I should say they're, they're, they're they do come out in November, huh? They're, they go down in October. Yeah, I'm used. 48:54 I'm used to Vegas and Mesquite where they close in September, but you guys are about a month later. Yeah. So I, yeah, I do think that it's, you mean obviously absolutely would pass. Now, I also will say that, and I don't know how much you guys know in terms of like operation side, but most of the golf courses and I'm not positive on the Phoenician, but I would almost assume that they've gone to the dynamic model to where for prices, yeah, rates increased based upon availability. 49:22 Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure. Are they managed by Troon still? I'm not as far. As I know, yeah, Troon. Does, yeah. So if we want to just, we'll say pass on. One pass on the guts. Let's jump in a bang for buck because I was looking at it. 49:38 They have Troon access on there. So if you, which, like we talk about the test and we talk about people coming in booking from out of town, you might start to get people who do have the Troon access card just because of how much Troon is managing at this point. So your buddies might save 40% on their tea time when they come out here, right? 49:57 So if you can get it at that 40% off, it's an absolute steal. When I looked for Saturday, prime time, like 930. Tea time was 271, Twilight was like 165. 50:16 On a Saturday. On a Saturday, I mean, good Lord, is I I'm going to say that that's pretty average. Sad. It's sad that that sounds average to me. It's pretty average. Yeah, Just real quick, so this question is, is a golf course worth the rate you pay? 50:34 Do you feel like this course is a good value during peak season? That's the clarifier on this question. Let's just say peak season. I'm going to go ahead and say give it another month before we're flooded with the snowbirds, OK? They're probably they're already coming in, but let's just call it later on. 50:51 This course is on average around 350 bucks plus for for that period of time. And then I'm not even talking about Phoenix Open Week. It's a whole other beast, right? But no, that doesn't happen. Like November, December, January, it's 350 around there. Yeah. 51:07 Again, associated with a Is it a Ritz Carlton hotel or is it No, it's a No, it's a. Host. Hotels. I think, I think, or Mary. I might technically own it now. Mary does. I think it's a signature. Who owns it? Oh, well, either way, it's a five star hotel and so you're not gonna you're not going to a five star hotel with a golf course attached to it and seeing some low green feet in season. 51:30 Yeah, yeah, we're just waiting for you. Did a Google real quick to confirm I was right. No, you're still right. Host hotels. I want to say it was a signature collection by Marriott when I was there. Oh, hold on, hold on. It was Sheraton, which was owned by Starwood, and Starwood sold to host. 51:48 Hold on. It is owned by Host Hotels and Resorts, but it is operated by Marriott. OK, so we're. Yeah, All right. Hey, I'll back off. I'll back. Off yeah. So, you know again, I think if you're I think if you're going to come stay at that hotel it the golf course is great for you to just be right on property. 52:12 They bring you a cart to the to the thing they come pick you up. It's just easy. Why, why, why do you need to go somewhere else? If you're you just don't. You can chill and play good golf right there. Great. Be back to the pool by name. I agree but unfortunately TJ and I are more of an every man and we don't cater to the audiences that stay at Phoenician when they come into town that. 52:34 Often totally understand. That's fine. I think that's good perspective. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, 'cause I mean, sometimes you may not be comparing apples to apples. 100%, yeah, I think good. Sean, I mean, I could say the thing here is that in comparison, there's nowhere else that you're going to play that is going to have the views that Phoenician has like it, right? 52:59 There's no so, So from a cost perspective, like if you look at it that way, then yeah, it's absolutely justified, right. But are there other courses in the Valley that might be like $100 cheaper that are going to also have some really cool views for you during peak season? 53:16 Probably also yes. So it's 3:50 is a tough pill to swallow for a tee time. Well, I was just going to say 350. The other thing is you have people from out of town who don't know any of the history about Phil Smith in 2018 and what he did to those holes, right? 53:33 So they come and they think they're getting desert golf. They come from the Midwest, they come from the East Coast, whatever, right? They see that mountain and they're like, oh, this is going to be sick. And they get on that front 9 and it's. Yeah. And they're like, how much was this round? I I've I've heard that feedback from people who are tourists. 53:52 So you know, it's tough because they're like, well, I could have played Greyhawk and Greyhawk would have gotten you desert golf for all eighteen holes, right? There's homes on some of those holes too. But so anyways. I mean, those are all, they're all valid points. 54:08 Are those holes on the front 9 good golf holes? They're pretty good for I. Think they are good golf holes personally. I mean, it's not like you're going to be out there and and be super bored because the it's a straight hole with two kidney buckers and A and a round green. They're not that like there's some pretty strategic, some strategic, you know, value to those golf holes. 54:28 OK, so are we pass or fail for the bang for your buck during peak season? I'll start with you. What do you think, Brian? I'm going to say yeah, because I think it's you're going to be a homework. For this course aren't. You well, I mean, I just think that it just and I think it also depends on who you are. 54:49 Yeah. Like, yeah, I, I mean. TJ, what do you think? Yeah, I mean I 353. 350 barrier is, is tough. I, I, I would. It's one of those I would be much more comfortable at 275. 100% I, I honestly, that's what I thought when I looked at this. 55:10 And I said, all right, it's 275 going into the first week of November, but when it hits January or February, it's gonna be 350. And I know that I'm not paying 350 for a detail. I'm just gonna say that that. Doesn't have. That's not abandoned. Golf travel right now is insane. 55:27 Oh yeah, yeah. Insane. Every single golf course is up by a hundred 150 bucks. Yeah, at least at least everywhere. Yeah. I mean, it's crazy. Like, I mean, so that's just market demand and I think market value 350 yeah, that's, that's a little much for what I can't remember What we Cupai is, isn't we Cupai just under 3? 55:53 Yeah, exactly. So Wekapa runs in the anywhere from 280 to 3:10, depending on that same time of year. Yeah. So you know, if you look, if you look at that comparison in that, that gauge like if you're saying that WEKAPA is probably maybe the best value overall because of what you get out there. 56:09 Yeah, but it's all the way out there. But it's all the way out there and it's not right there in town. It's not connected to a five star hotel. It's very different golf than this lush, you know, sort of Country Club style golf as it is at at the Phoenician. 56:31 So I just think that there's some differences there and I think it comes down to like who you are as a golfer and what are you doing. So therein lies kind of the value of where to play and where not to. Play TJ. You want me to go? I mean, I said 3:50 is too hard to swallow. 56:49 I think that was pretty straightforward that I'm failing it. But I also, I also thoroughly see Brian's point where there's a lot of people. Also sure, I see. Who would 100% be planning a trip to Pinehurst? And this year they're going to Scottsdale instead of Pinehurst. And a 350 round is like, Oh my God, we're saving how much money per round, right? 57:09 So I get it. But I think for most of our demographic slash myself, I think it's a fail. So. It's it's for me, it comes back to I'm taking people from out of town and I'm taking them to Wekapa to be like, this is Arizona fucking golf and you're in the middle of the desert, right? 57:29 And that is 40 bucks cheaper. Yeah, it's a bit of a drive, but you're going to get that experience. If they're staying in town and Old Town or something like that, then that's where I could see Phoenicians worth it because you're not going to have to go far. You're hungover the night before. OK, great. 57:45 Don't worry about it. You only have 10 minute drive to the course. Like take your time. I could totally see the value on that, but I'm a fail because I can think of a handful of other courses that I'm going to go recommend before this for 350 bucks that time. So but I know this course is going to do great on these other questions. 58:02 So I'm not worried about Phoenician right now. I'm just this question is tough for me so. You know, I, I'll just just add one more thing. And, and so looking at it from, from two different points of views. Are you looking at this as a local player? Are you looking at this from a destination standpoint? 58:17 And they're two different animals. For sure, Yeah. But the whole test generally for us, like I said, is we are trying to gear it towards you're in town as a tourist or I'm hosting tourists. So we're gearing it towards someone who's unfamiliar and they're like, hey, what are the must plays in in the valley? 58:37 So OK, so one for 2. So question 3, the Iverson test here. Does this course have good practice facilities or would you just spend time heading for the bar before the round? TJ think you can go first. We talk about practice, not a game. 58:53 Practice This course checks all the boxes on practice facilities. It it all the ones that I say are infinite points in my book. This course has them Good. Good short game area, dedicated putt and green next to the first tee. 59:12 Good size range, no mats, free balls. Like the only the only slight that I think this range has against it is it's a little bit of a drive from the mercy and the pro shop. 59:29 But other than that, like, I can't see many other reasons why this wouldn't pass with like exceedingly flying colors. Yeah, this is one of the practice facilities where you're telling guys to get here early because you're going to enjoy. I think when we played, was that this year that we played or was it last year? 59:48 Was this year? It was last year. Oh yeah, it was like August or September last year, right. And yeah, I think I got to the course like two, 2 1/2 hours early. You're. You're. Obnoxiously early to go well also also you, you know that I'm going to do the full tour of the pro shop. 1:00:07 I'm going to I'm going to try and uncover every nook and cranny within the pro shop for me. For me. I mean, so here's the thing that I didn't even like talk about. I grew up wandering around the Phoenician when I was a kid. My stepdad was a valet when when I was a kid. So we would go to pick him up from work and we would kind of just wander around the Zorp. 1:00:26 Someone is waiting for him to get off because sometimes he'd still just be running cars, making cash. So like, I love the idea of the Phoenician because for me it was only like the place that my stepdad worked at. It was never a place I got to like go and experience. So for me to be playing that day and to get to go back and then also knowing that like we're going to cover it someday on the podcast, it's, it's a little bit sentimental and I want to. 1:00:49 Make sure. I have time to take it all in. That's some nostalgia there. Yeah, I'm a solid pass for this. I don't think we have to go too deep on this question. Yeah, I'm good on it. It's solid. I mean, the odd just exactly. The oddity is that it's a little bit away, but what you do. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's funny. 1:01:05 OK so 2 for three question for the Jonesy test here. Could you see yourself spending $100 on merch and their pro shop? Do they have a logo or peril worth wearing? I think you did spend over 100 this day there didn't you DJ? Yeah, I can leave this one off here 'cause I think I, I'm kind of on the fence on this one. 1:01:28 It's a great pro shop, great brands inside the pro shop, great apparel. They do a pretty good use of the word mark and everything. The tough part for me, and this is this is Asterisk as well, I did, I did spend close to 100. 1:01:46 I bought a head cover. It is the skyline of or the, the, it's the, the landscape of the, of Camelback Mountain. So that definitely tugs on the heartstrings as a kid who grew up in Scottsdale. On the flip side of that, the logo for the golf course is the logo of the city of Phoenix. 1:02:08 And it's just that circular Phoenix emblem and it in my brain, it's it as a, as a native Phoenician, the logo is not anything special in my brain because I've seen it on the side of a million cop cars and on street signs and everywhere. 1:02:30 So like I, I know it's probably not the logo to the T, but they are so incredibly similar that that's all I can see in my brain. Are you looking it up, Sean? I, I, I I just realized I don't know what it looks like, so I'm looking it up right now. 1:02:46 Oh, you're right. It's just, it's here. Yeah. Can I? It might come. No, it's not going to focus on there. There we go. Yeah. So it's, it's on there. It's, you know, the, the, the, the I think the the city logo is a little bit more rounded in there. 1:03:03 So I'll be, I'll be honest, I'm torn on this question because I, I, like I said, there's great stuff in the pro shop. And like you said, I, I, I, I don't, I don't buy a head cover at every golf course that I go to. 1:03:18 I have to like the semblance. But, but to me, I bought the I bought the head cover because I like the aspect of the landscape of Camelback Mountain and it's an homage to my home versus the logo itself. Yeah. Well, Brian, just real quick. 1:03:34 So this question we put in here because on these golf trips or when people are in town, they love to usually commemorate the trip at one of the courses. So we we include this to say like you know, is. This one you're. Going to go buy something to commemorate that trip. Is it memorable enough to buy something from a golf? 1:03:50 Club, right, Right. Yeah, so I'm on, but this may be the only critique. I I would say I'm probably a no unless I'm a big T-shirt guy. Unless they had AT shirt with just that on it. Interesting. 1:04:09 Not a golf polo AT shirt. No, yeah, AT shirt AT shirt with that center right there so that I might buy that, but I'm I'm probably only be in on it maybe if it was any more than depending on the quality of the shirt if it was any more than 50 bucks I probably. 1:04:25 Didn't know, yeah. So he's so he's not getting up to the 100 anyway. Probably not, not unless there was not unless I had some Stella round or a hole in one or some magical experience that would say, hey, you know what, I'm going to grab a polo or a hat or something. 1:04:44 But this probably would be a course that I, you know, I think the golf course is great. I mean, I'd play it. I'd play at any time. I got the opportunity really. I think it's it's cool, but am I going to buy a bunch of beer now? 1:05:01 Yeah, Sean. And I want to say too, that I think that the pro shop, the pro shop, the pro shop is actually pretty good. Like I remember it looks well done and and looks great and and fits the part. And I think they even renovate renovated it. 1:05:16 Like it looks like it's like bright and got windows and like nice displays and it looks good. I'm sure there's great brands. So, yeah, yeah. But OK, So 2 for four here. Question 5, the buzzworthy test. 1:05:32 Are there multiple holes worth talking about? Does this course have more than one hole that a group would want to immediately go play again? Brian, you want to go first in this one? Trying to run through my head there. Multiple holes. Yeah, on the front 9. 1:05:49 I think 9 is spectacular. Yeah, I like 9 a lot. I also like there's a let's see, it would be 1/2. 2 is a really good par 5/3. Is that little par 3 and then four and five, four and five I remember. 1:06:05 And isn't like 6 like a reachable par 4? 6 is the big dog like left? No, no, no. That's 7. That's. 7. That's 766 is like a drivable par 4 there's. Lingering on the right and then left in front of. The green and like the green has a big roller in it, like there's some risk reward there. 1:06:23 So I think 4, there's some cool holes over there. Are they super memorable? I think 9 is. I think the obviously the most memorable hole is 14. Or is it 15? The the one that's highest up on the mountain. Yeah, the high point on the mountain. The drivable Part 4 on the mountain. Yeah, yeah, that one's one of my holes that I love. 1:06:41 Is it 14/14/14 and 15? Let's see 12's the 12's the Let's see 10, 11's the par three downhill. 12 Up the Hill 12. 12 up the hill, so it might be 13 because you're 13. 1:06:57 It's 13, yeah. Well, you're right, it's 13 then you come back. So yeah, 13's great. I think, I think that little, even though it's like even that little section right there is kind of compact and if you blast 1 high right, you're on another fairway. I still feel like they're good individual holes and like those changed quite a bit, like the the the turf reduction and the native around it when Phil Redid all of that was way better than it was before. 1:07:28 Oh. Yeah. So, yeah, and I think that I'd probably say that for me, there would probably be two, possibly three holes that are like the talk about holes that are like, hey, those, that's a great golf hole, but it's really good. Yeah, 16's a good golf hole. 17's a cool Part 3. 17's a great Part 3. 1:07:49 I actually love 17. I have a really funny memory from 17. If you want to hear. Just real quick, I played in the JPGA at the Phoenician. That was like our championship course. I sprayed a ball so far into traffic on whatever. That is. That's camelback, Yeah, I guess it's Camelback, right? 1:08:06 And so I reteed and I sprayed it again and it hit a car the second time and I just literally put my stuff. I was done. I just didn't want to finish eighteen. I was so embarrassed because I was like, there was like the scorekeepers with us. It's. 1:08:24 Terrible. I know. And randomly I was with Bob Brendley's son, Mike Brentley. If you know who Bob Brendley is, the manager of the Diamondbacks when they won the World Series, we got picked up by Bob Brendley after they won the World Series. He was like, how did you do get a car? I sprayed it on 17 near the car. 1:08:43 So I what was the what was the criteria to to pass or fail? I think we're past year. It's basically are there more than one hole that you think are buzz worthy or people want to play again and the. Answer is so. Yeah, 100%. I'd love to get out there and replay 10 again and not try and hit a ball into my face. 1:09:01 Yeah. Should I drop the clip in this episode, TJ? We can we can put the clip, but we when we were talking about this trip that we took last year, we infamously played A2V2T flip on the back 9. So actually it wasn't it is 10. 1:09:17 It was literally the 1st hole that we played, put one in the put one in the desert. And still to this day everyone goes, why did you not move that ball? Why did you not move that ball? Why did you not move the ball? Well, we were playing a match and we felt like we needed to hit it out of the desert. And I thought with the highest lofted club I'd have, I would be able to get it over the rock that was in front of me. 1:09:35 And that dirt is really compact. You cannot, you cannot really leverage the bounce of a club on dirt. So I hit the rock in front of me and took one right back in the chin. As you can see, I still have all of my teeth. 1:09:50 I got very, very, very lucky that I have no permanent damage associated with that. Cue the clip. Oh, things just. Come right off the guy, recovery is safe. That hit you? 1:10:05 I didn't get you. He got it. Tell me it didn't get any teeth. 345 question states the glizzy test. Does this course have good food at the turn? 1:10:22 Are you eating here or packing your own snacks? I will say I love the food at this course at the turn and they have a dedicated turn stand right next to that putting green that you were talking about that's next to the first tee. Makes it really easy. You don't have to go into a restaurant that's part of like a hotel. 1:10:38 You don't have to go upstairs to that other restaurant if you want to. They have it right there. The only drawback is that they don't have stuff ready to go sometimes, so you wind up waiting for them to like whatever you want. And then I think this even happened to you guys when we played that one day that you had to wait and then catch up to the group. 1:10:55 So this isn't what happened to, that's not what happened to us. What happened to us was they closed that turn stand at a fairly early hour. I read a handful of reviews on Google about it as well, about people saying that we drove. We drove past the turn at 2:30 and the turn stand was already closed. 1:11:14 So what happened was when we drove by and we're playing, I wouldn't say that we're playing twilight, but we're playing twilight ish. So we made the turn probably after 2:30, but it was late summer, early fall. Mike had to run all the way up into the restaurant and get beers from the bar in the restaurant for the back 9. 1:11:37 So I had this down as a fail because of that situation. That is, I I, I I didn't even get an opportunity to order. Food, let alone it, was really good at the turn too. It's really good. You know, you know me, I, I, I like to stay calorically fueled out on a golf course and I didn't even get the chance to. 1:11:58 OK, I, you know, I'm trying to recall. I'm not even sure that the last time I played it. I, I know I ate at the restaurant, at the, at the clubhouse, but that was after hours. I don't think we ate anything at the turn. 1:12:15 I don't think they had what you were talking about. I don't think there was like a turn stand, at least when I played the last time I played it. It's permanently there, but it might not have been open, I guess when you were there. But I would say that that is a reason if, if depending on time of year, I mean, I understand in, in in the summer, like they're just not going to run like half a certain time. 1:12:36 Now peak season, I would say, man, you got to run that thing until at least until the twilight, you know, rounds, rounds come through or whatever. But you know, that's a challenge. Staffing, staffing the F&B on a golf course is always tough. 1:12:52 Just having that forecasting. But now, now they probably do a little bit better, I would say, because they might have a little bit better idea of how many players they can expect at least, you know, at least a week out or or five days out or something. I don't know. I got to, I got to kind of pass on this one though, because I just, I don't know if I have a pass or fail on it. 1:13:12 I mean, the food that I had at the clubhouse, I recall would. Well, if you're a pass and T JS a fail and I'm a pass, then it's a fail because we need at least two passes, so it's a fail. So we are three for six here. So question 7, the Marshall test. 1:13:29 Does this course have a decent pace of play? Can you rely on a relatively quick round here if you have somewhere to be after? Again, I I, I, I am, I get lucky when I am do what I do. I get to play the golf, I get to play the golf course and usually times where pace of play is not an issue, right. 1:13:47 But I'll be honest, I, I would say that if you take a twilight round there, you're probably you're probably waiting around waiting. You're I. Might get the people who are on vacation kind of kicking around, taking their time. It's, it's a, it's a token staple of playing a resort course, right? 1:14:05 Is that you get people who are from out of town who are, have no care in the world. They're playing with a set of rentals out, of course, they've never played before, right? And then and maybe maybe they're, I mean a 30 handicap too. Yeah, but. 1:14:20 I mean, you have maybe you have a golf course podcast and you're a 30 handicap. I guarantee you there is. I will. Say on the pace. Though. Here's the counters that question one, the Augusta test about, you know, is it easy? A tee time on I think plays into this because there are gaps in the time sometimes when I play here, but it's not like every 9 minutes is a group going out. 1:14:44 Do they run 9 minute tee times? I think they run 10 minutes tee time. Look, they look, they ran, they run 10. 10 minutes tee time which should be fine. That should be decent pace of play. I mean you, you guys tell me I don't, I don't think would seem to me with Troon's reputation of time par. 1:15:05 They are a they are a management company that prides themselves on 4/20 at the outside. I was going to say, so you'll see a Marshall on this course. We I've always seen a Marshall here. He's checking on stuff. 1:15:21 I, I have had rounds here go pretty quick in the morning especially. And I, I'm a pass on this question. I think it does really well on this. I've seen people online complain about it, but honestly, every course has complaints about pace of play. And when I think about Phoenician, I don't think about like, oh, this is going to suck like especially where it's located to. 1:15:41 I know that I can get in and out relatively quickly. I don't want to tell the wife I'll be back getting it out like it's gonna be generally okay round, yeah. Now the other dogs coming in, coming in. All right, there's Bandit. DJ your pass. 1:15:59 Yeah. I mean, I recall that when we played there was no issues whatsoever. So that's, that's pretty much there. I kind of look, there's a handful of spots on on the Internet where somebody had an issue here or an issue there. But generally if a course has an overwhelming pace of play issue, you'll see that throughout the reviews on the Internet as well. 1:16:20 It's it'll be very present on people talking about 5 hour rounds or five and a half hour rounds. And you don't see any of that when it comes to the reviews on this. So I'm a pass as well. OK so now it's 4 for seven so it's got to pass at least two of the next 3 to be up for debate here for must play. 1:16:37 So question 8, the high handicapper test. Would a mid to high handicapper enjoy this course in typical conditions? Is it fair to all handicaps? Are the greens or pin positions fair? I can I can lead it off as as the token high handicapper of the podcast. 1:16:54 I think this course is pretty fair, especially when it comes to what you're going to expect from what Sean talked about with regular Arizona desert golf. If you're going to go pay that $300 to go play WICO, Pennsylvania, you're probably going to lose somewhere between 6:00 and 12:00 balls here. 1:17:13 Here you can. You can probably be a high handicap and probably get away with somewhere between 4:00 to 6:00 balls, depending upon how many you may be put in a few people's backyards, but there's a lot of those holes that kind of run back and forth down the hills on the back 9. 1:17:31 Or you might just be in another fairway or you might be in the kind of deserted, the deserted area between the two holes. And the the fairways here don't feel super narrow. So they they're they're I wouldn't say they're, they're wide sprawling fairways, but they I'm not looking at them thinking I need to hit a 5 iron off this T to put this in play. 1:17:53 No, they all feel doable to me every single year. And so let me just as a as a gauge, what's your handicap? I'm. A 24 right now. OK, All right. So that's a good gauge. I mean, that's that's a good gauge of of a player and and a good point of saying that you feel like that that you're good to go there. 1:18:13 And yeah, yeah. So I mean, I would say yeah. And I also think that even a better player from the IT all comes back to the correct TS. I think too. You know, I don't know what I don't know what it plays to from the back. It's probably not super long just because of the land constraint, but you know, I, I feel like even a better player would enjoy the golf course. 1:18:39 I, I love the, I mean, that's a I am a better player. I don't know. I mean in, in, in Sean, realistically, no matter whether you want to brag about it or not, in relativity, most people are better players than I am who keep a handy gap like. 1:18:56 How, what are you? What are you playing too, Sean, just as a gauge in this question? I'm a four. OK. So you're a great player. I'm right in the middle at about 11. OK, so so we've got a good gauge here of like what what you can handle on the golf course to still have fun. 1:19:14 And so for me, I don't feel like I didn't feel like driving that golf course was all that hard. I felt like unless I really did something stupid, made a terrible swing, I was going to be somewhere in the vicinity of play of that hole. 1:19:31 Yeah, I would say that. Sorry to cut you. Off, go ahead. I I don't even think that I even, I think I lost the ball in the leg. Yeah, you'll. Yeah, you'll lose 1 on 17 or 18, right? Like. Yeah, 18 I I I lost it on 4. 9. 1:19:50 Nine. Yeah, I thought I hooked the ball into the lake on 9, and then I also hooked the ball into the lake on 4. Yeah. I don't. Yeah, there's that one on four. I don't think the teeth of this course is off the tee necessarily, although there are some shots that can be intimidating. 1:20:07 I think it's the tiered greens. The greens have sometimes 3 tiers or sometimes a bowl or something else going on and a lot of courses out in the valley by default I'll always just say don't go long. 1:20:24 Try and play just short of the pin cause a lot of greens slow back to front and Phoenician has back to front greens, but it also has some that are absolutely flat from your approach. But they have these weird things going on in the middle. And so depending on where the pin is that day, you're like, hey, I actually don't want to leave a super long iron into this green. 1:20:47 If I can get down there a little bit and have a wedge in or something else, I'll be in much better shape because I'm not going to be like trying to traverse this entire green. So for, you know, a player with a better handicap, if you are making it down there, you're finding this to be exciting. 1:21:03 Like it tickles my brain because I'm like, oh, I'm going to leave this on this shelf or I'm going to leave this just right here. Yeah, that's. Cool. And so I enjoy that about Phoenician quite a bit, but this is high handicap protest. So TJ and Jason too, which is the real? Thing yeah, I mean, I enjoy it. There's not a ton of room to go long on a lot of the holes just because of the routing is so tight through a lot of the houses that are up against the mountains. 1:21:25 So and then and then like you said, you're you you run into a little bit around the greens. So if you are, we talk about this all the time when we talk about this question is what what makes you a high handicapper? Is it your short game? Is it, are you terrible off the T? So I mean, if you're not a super confident putter, you could realistically have a a bad time out here and be like, I hit a green in regulation and then I4 putted and now I'm pissed 'cause I have a double. 1:21:52 But I think like from an optic standpoint and building confidence and going from T to green and letting that filter out into the rest of the game, it's it's an absolute pass. Yeah. OK. Yeah, I would. I would say it's got to be pretty, pretty friendly. 1:22:08 Yeah, OK, so we're 5 for eight. Question 9, the vibes test. Is this course worth staying at post Round? Do they have a good restaurant or patio scene? So in 2018 they added that restaurant above the pro shop up there and that restaurant is sick. 1:22:24 I love that restaurant quite a bit. Tavern the yes, the food is really good there. Drinks are good. Not a lot of courses do this, but one time I played there and I didn't have my coffee in the morning and I was craving coffee. And courses generally have just the pot of coffee. 1:22:42 And she's like, oh, what do you want, honey? I got cold brew. I got an espresso machine. And I was like, dear God, thank you. I was so happy. I was like, that just raised a point in my book. But like, it's just, it's right there and it's such a cool little like you'd go up the spiral staircase up to the top and then they got TV's up there and stuff and it's a fun place to go hang out after. 1:23:02 There's no like there is a patio in front of the turnstand, but no one's ever down there. It's always the restaurant that people are going up to if they're hanging out. Yeah. Well, no. And then there's there's a nice patio associated with that, with that restaurant as well that that kind of pops out and overlooks. Yeah, just outside the windows right there, there's like a one row tables, Yeah. 1:23:21 Yeah, so you get that. Yeah. The the only thing that would potentially deter it away from being a pass for me would be the golf course's proximity to Old Town Scott. I knew you were going to say that options in Old Town that you're going to go to. 1:23:39 I mean, we, we've talked about it on the podcast with other golf courses that are centrally located to the hubs of downtown areas or, or popular parts of the city, but I digress. Like they, they've done a really good job in trying really hard to keep you here at the golf course and eat at this restaurant and, and. 1:24:01 I'll add a little, I'll add a little piece to that and that's good to know, especially from another different aspect. I stayed at the hotel, so when you come back to the hotel, the lobby bar at the hotel is phenomenal. It's fantastic. 1:24:17 And I think all four nights I stayed there, there was a band plan in the lobby. So like first of all, epic people watching. Oh yeah, that that's a great place to go do that. 1:24:34 It was like star-studded event, like just like you could just sit there and just be like, wow, you know, like on many, many levels. But the food I got from the bar was top notch. The service was great. The cocktails were great. 1:24:50 The entertainment of it was great. So if you're just gonna, if you're just chilling at the hotel, yeah. So you can kind of mix it up there. You could, you know, go have a, you know, something right after, after, after golf at the at the course if you wanted to, or you could come back to your room, shower up and then go down and have a very casual, you know, there's got to be, I'm sure there's a five star restaurant somewhere in there, which is fine. 1:25:15 But you know, for me, I'd rather just go chill at the bar and have some, you know, great bar food and just go from there. I thought that that that sticks out in my mind as like a pretty, pretty darn cool place that I associate with Phoenician. Yeah, especially as I'm assuming you traveled by yourself, but like when I do solo business travel, the lobby bar hits every time. 1:25:39 Yes, absolutely. I mean also, so here's another aspect of it is, is if you were on a golf trip with your wife or another couple, like any, if your wife played or she didn't play, like my wife wouldn't come with me and she would play one day, but she probably wouldn't play it the next day. She would go to the spa. Yeah, yeah. 1:25:55 So like you. Get his options. I mean, it's a pretty nice hotel for that kind of stuff. Yes, pricey too, but I mean some people want that five star luxury resort experience when they go on a trip like that. Yeah, a a lot of people like to go on a trip and never leave the place that they're staying at, and this is absolutely a place where you can do that. 1:26:16 Yeah, Yep. Agreed. All right, so 6 for 9:00. So if it passes the next one it's it's officially must play not. Even that big. Yeah. So question 10, the dime a dozen test. Is this course unique to the area or could you get this golf experience somewhere else on your trip or visit? 1:26:35 I I what do? You think? For me, this is a pass number one, this, and I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to preface this that there's definitely some home cooking here. 1:26:51 There is, there is definitely, there's definitely a little home cooking that comes into all this. But you're not going to play any other golf course that's going to be up on Camelback Mountain #1 #2 there's unless you decide to go hike a mountain, you're not going to get the views of the city anywhere else that you're going to get from this golf course #3 If you are staying in Old Town, there is only a handful of full par 72 golf courses that you can play that are within 15 minute Ubers of wherever you're staying if you're staying in Old Town. 1:27:35 Yeah, so. For those. Reasons and then and then throw in the the golf course itself, throw in the practice facilities that it's not that it's not just exactly throw in the resort if you happen to be staying at the resort, like if that's like, like Brian said it, it comes down to who the customer is, right? 1:27:56 If you, if you happen to be that customer or if, if you and your boys happen to be those kinds of guys who want to do it at the resort and, and, and, and live it up and say, hey, we're going to run back to the room, shower real quick. Meet you at the lobby bar. We'll have a drink there and then we'll go have dinner at the Tavern and then we'll go to Old Town after this. I can't ask for much more like that. 1:28:16 And that's not that's not even just home cooking. That's like from a trip perspective, like that's, that's all you want on a boys golf trip, right? That's all you want when you come out of town, come from out of town. So for me it's a pass, but I I've said my piece. Right. Good. So I think it there's, there's a couple points to make here. 1:28:40 One through 7 are the only real real estate line holes that have that deterrent of OK, they're they're they're just surrounded by real estate. They're good golf holes. They don't elevate to be the most memorable golf holes in the world because of that fact. 1:28:57 The land plan was only you could only do so much with them. So the other 2/3 of the golf course are pretty solid. Now I also think that this question depends on where you are in the valley. 1:29:17 Are you going to drive from the Boulders to the Venetian? Are you going to drive from Quintero to the Venetian? Oh hell no. No. Are you going to drive from Wicopod to the Phoenician? Maybe. Maybe it depends on what time you got a time to drive that you're going to drive at 8:00 in the morning to there it can take you an hour and a half. 1:29:41 Well, especially when you're staying somewhere in Scottsdale or Phoenix away from those other courses you just mentioned, right? This kind of kind of comes back to, to, to, to location for me because Phoenix is so big, like Phoenix and Scottsdale, like people think they, they, they're going to come to Scottsdale in this, this little teeny tiny town with like 50 different golf courses within 5 minutes of each other. 1:30:02 It's not that way. It's a massive city. It's a major city. It's Phoenix. So I think that there's a little bit of a misconception there in terms of like when you're coming to Arizona or Scottsdale in in, in, you know, as a whole, like, dude, you're talking about what 50 or 60 mile radius that really encompasses that. 1:30:25 So is it a bucket list golf course in Phoenix? Probably not. But is it like solid play that you could mix into that trip that depending on where you put it is a is like a solid play because a lot of golf trips come in. 1:30:45 They're like, all right, we're going to bucket list a couple, we're going to play TPC and Greyhawk, but then we need a couple other golf courses that aren't going to that are, you know, or whatever. I don't think it quite elevates to the TPC or Week of Paws or Quinteros or those like types of experience. 1:31:05 It's just a different animal. This is tough for me because does it fail? Not really. No, I think it's a pass for me personally too. I think everything you're saying right now is leaning me towards past. Yeah, I mean, I'm not trying to convince you or anything, but I just feel like just from what I, what I know in terms of like putting together trips and and and you know, it's location, location based. 1:31:31 And there's every not every golf course on a trip needs should be a banger, right? Not like you said, not everything needs to. Be a bucket course for everything. It can be, but not not always, not always. There's a lot of there's a lot of guys golf trips that are like, look, we'll play maybe one if that and then they then they want me mid level, mid level golf. 1:31:54 Yeah, because because they're probably, they could be full of could be everybody's a 25. That's that's also true is you just get you get slammed a day before by boulders, right? And you're like, I don't want to go play, I don't want to go play Greyhawk Raptor the next day. 1:32:11 Like I want to go play, I want to go lose 4 balls, right? Nobody wants to get their ass handed to them every single day. I. Mean no and when we plan our Scottsdale golf trips or we help people think about those trips, Phoenician makes it in because of the convenience and how you can plan around that and you can say hey after this round you're just going to leave your stuff in the car and we're going to head out to Old Town afterwards or we're going to go to this place, this bar. 1:32:37 And that makes the course unique because. There's not many. Courses you can go do that with. Right. So then that's a kind of a golden ticket for what it is in terms of where it sits in the Phoenix, greater Phoenix marketplace of what that golf course offers you, not just from the design aspects, the aesthetics, the views, whatever. 1:32:53 Those are all great points, but again, in the way Golf Scottsdale uses it is and coal, they use it as that exact thing you're talking about. It's kind of this like hub piece where you're like, all right, well, this one is close to here. So we could use this one as as kind of a centrally located piece that you don't have to drive a million miles across the valley if to. 1:33:14 Yeah, OK. So for that reason Phoenician is 7 out of 10 and is an officially a must play on our test. So congratulations, Phoenician. Good. No, I think that's great. I mean we, we've, we're here at the hour 90 minute mark. 1:33:30 We've, we've, we've debate a lot of points from a good batch of handicaps here, a low handicapper, a mid capper and a high handicapper. What else could you want? Yep. That's that's usually 9 minutes. Thank you for everyone who stuck around. Brian, appreciate you obviously coming on. 1:33:52 It was a pleasure talking to you and getting to know more about your background too. I was just curious, we like to leave the space at the end here for you to talk about anything you might have coming up or anything you want to promote. Floor is yours are any. New trips coming up, thank God I've got nothing currently. 1:34:11 Nice. I am I, I, I, I mean something will pop up. I typically do something for Golf Digest in November and December. Usually a best new type shoot, but I think I'm going to I'm actually going to try and come to to Phoenix or come to Scottsdale probably in December or January and do some work for golf Scottsdale AZ and you know, do some stuff there. 1:34:40 So golf Scottsdale AZ is one of the one of the businesses that I help operate and run and own. So, you know, if anybody needs any golf trip up, that's where to go. The other, the other thing that, you know, my night photography is really what I try to, you know, my golf course photography is what I do. 1:34:59 It's how I have people know me. If you want to follow at Brian Orr on Instagram or at Golf Illuminated, that's two cool Instagram sites that I operate and yeah, come check it out. I mean, golf junkies love it, including myself. 1:35:17 I'm a golf junkie. Non junkies love it. I like I told you, I showed my wife and a few other people and like all of it was addicting to scroll through. Good. Yeah, well, that's the idea. And, you know, it's a passion of mine. I I to, I finally make a little bit of money from it. 1:35:36 But man, it's, it's it's definitely been a passion. I mean, there was a time where I didn't make any money on it, but it was just more about loving the look of a golf course at sunrise and sunset and the way it made me feel. And I still get that every time I go out and shoot. 1:35:53 I still get a rush when the sun comes over the top of the mountain and all of a sudden it's a go. And really my brain turns off at that point and I'm just, I'm just especially now with a drone, because a drone you can, you can get places so quick, like you can fly from end to end. 1:36:11 You can, you know, you can get to places super fast. So like you can do, you can get some, you can get some awesome work done with a drone, which has been cool to do over the past 15 years. Yeah, very cool. Any chance are you doing Rodeo Dunes by any chance or is that a? 1:36:30 Haven't had the opportunity to, to do that. You know, obviously they're essentially abandoned property. They've got 5 million people that ask them to shoot every single day. Am I going to go out there at some point? Probably. You know, I try to, I try to these days. 1:36:50 I try to take stuff that, that is worth it to do. I mean, I've, I've been 23 years into this. I, I, I try not to go places that are across the country that it aren't for the right money. You know, I did, I did that for a long time and I just, you know, I've got too many other things to do now. 1:37:09 And I've been doing a lot of work for the company that owns Black Desert. They have other golf properties in the country. And so they hire me to do high end properties. Like they got a Tiger Woods course in Park City that I'll be shooting in the, in the, in the spring. 1:37:27 They have another property in Telluride. They have another property in Virginia, so I've been doing a ton of work for them and it's just just, it's just good work on good golf courses that I motivated to be like, wow, I got to come out here and just get some smoking Hotshots, you know. 1:37:43 So I've spent some time with it. You know, it's great to it's great to come go to a place and, and not have to knock out 50 photos in 2 days. Yeah, you're not just running and gunning. Yeah, and that's really hard to do because you just never know what weather's going to do. You could get totally shut down, like you could go like if I fly out East, man, it's so stressful flying E because the weather is just, you don't know what it's going to do. 1:38:07 All up and down the coast. Yeah, I mean, you, you could get rain for five straight days, man, and it sucks. And then you're not getting paid and you're just wasting money, you know. So it's a challenge these days. I try to do stuff that's cool and and I have the I have 3 or 4 days on property to give my chance give it the best look with the weather windows. 1:38:30 Yeah. So yeah, but that's about it, man. Enjoy your time at home with no trips coming up you. Know I will. That doesn't mean I'm not working man. I got the oh. I'm sure grind doesn't stop there yet. Yeah, the golf travel business is busy, man. 1:38:47 Yeah, well, thank you again for joining everyone who's stuck around as well. You know, you can listen to us on YouTube. You can watch this podcast or rate US five stars wherever you listen. It really helps us out. But Brian, thank you again for joining us today. Thanks for thanks for inviting me on. 1:39:04 I'd be happy to chat anytime, Anytime you want to do another one, we'll we'll jump on a debate. Awesome. Thanks, Brian. Cool. Cheers guys. © 2025 Spotify AB Legal Privacy Cookies