Hey listeners, we have a good one for you today with Michael Glancy, Co founder and creative director of Painter Golf on to discuss a little bit more about their athletes, signings, how Painter Golf came to be, some of his background and then we asked him some burning questions we've always wanted to ask someone in the space. If you love a little behind the scenes talk maybe about Jason Day, Minh, Woo Lee or even just golf shoes in general, this is the perfect pod for you. 0:21 Stay tuned. 0:32 Mike, thanks for joining us today. How's everything going? It's good, man. Thanks guys. Great to be here and yeah, super excited to talk, talk a little golf forward with you guys. Yeah, we are super excited as well. Obviously to our listeners, you're the first person that we've had from a golf footwear brand on the show. 0:49 So we're really excited to chat all things Painter golf, but also talk the bigger sphere of golf footwear. But for anyone who's listening and not familiar with with you, could you tell us who you are, what you do at Painter and what what's your background like? Yeah, absolutely. Michael Glancy, I'm the creative director at Painter Golf, also a Co founder. 1:08 And I think I don't want to date myself too much, but kind of going back. I actually. So I played soccer, lacrosse in college, didn't play golf, but was also an art major and always loved building. I had my lacrosse coach was coach at our college for 40 years and he never had a single art major. 1:27 So I was the first one in 40 years. So pretty unique. But I but for me, sports and art has always been a really passion of mine. And so I right out of school, I got a job at Reebok as an intern that lasted for only about a month and I got offered a full time job and I started in basketball as a designer, as a forward designer. 1:48 I was technically a tech pack technician. I, I laugh about that. It was the senior designers giving me a sketch on a napkin and I was supposed to simply show the views of what that would look like. Then they can send it to the factory. So I, I kind of cut my teeth in that looking at other people's designs and, and kind of taking it out for them. 2:08 But that was about a year. And then I transferred over into the cleated division at Reebok. And at the time Reebok was, was crushing and included, we had every major sporting team event. So it was NFL, Major League Baseball, Major League Lacrosse, which is really cool. 2:24 And, and that's really where I, I started. I was at Reebok for 10 years, all included doing anything, anything with a cleat, football, baseball, lacrosse, anything. But at the time, Reebok didn't have any golf, so they didn't have a golf division. Yeah. So after Reebok, I got recruited to Under Armour and spent ten years in Under Armour, headed up there, cleated division there and kind of four or five years into my journey, Reebok, they signed Jordan Spieth or an Under Armour signed Jordan Spieth. 2:51 And I think no one, never, no one thought, you know, Jordan was obviously coming out of, of, of school was hugely decorated, but no one thought he was going to be Jordan Spieth and, and so quickly. And so we, if it's funny, if you look back, his first, I believe 2 tournaments wearing Under Armour apparel. 3:10 He's wearing foot joy shoes and we we didn't Under Armour didn't have any, any, any footwear. We were scrambling to try and get him a, a new, you know, kind of a just a, a shoe that that he could wear. But the tooling, the uppers, nothing existed. So we hurry up offense took about four months and we got Jordan and shoes and obviously he blew up after that. 3:32 And so with that, we put in a Under Armour, put in a a footwear division. I was running the design side, Mike forcing my partner and Painter was brought in industry vet to run the the strategy and the marketing and the sales side. 3:48 And we did that for six years. And then this, this unbelievable opportunity with Painter golf came and we we jumped ship and and kind of rest is history. We've been doing that for the last four, almost five years now. So you've been in this essentially since out of college? Yeah. 4:03 No, I've been in the, the performance for industry literally from from day one. I I right out of school. I yeah, I think there was maybe a month long break between my before my intern started a Reebok. So it's been yeah, it's, it's, it's some serious years that has to make you one of the most successful art majors coming out of college. 4:25 I I, I, I would think so. And it's funny. So my father was a glass artist and a career glass artist, went to Rhode Island school design and worked under Dale Shahuli, who this is this famous glass artist in the glass world. And you know, but he never had had a boss. 4:41 He was always his own boss. And so when I, I pursued the art industry, he couldn't believe that I'd have bosses and was corporate. And so he could not understand that part of it. But but no, it still allowed me to be super creative. But you know, there's certainly hurdles that come from a big corporate America as well. 5:00 Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I mean, I think none of our dads at this point understand any of the jobs that we're. Doing right, I think that kind of falls in line. Yep. Okay, so let's Fast forward a little bit towards where you're at now, Painter Golf. For those who are unfamiliar or uninitiated with the brand, can you give us the quick like elevator pitch on Painter Golf? 5:22 Yeah, absolutely. So so painter golf. So painter the brand was founded in 96 in oh sorry, it was was founded in 2016 in England, just out of out of side of England and Leeds. And so it was founded with a three generations of cricketers, So a grandfather, father, the son, David Painter, who's also a Co founder of Painter Golf. 5:46 They were all professional cricketers. And David Painter felt underprivileged, underserved when it came to footwear in the cricket space. And so he had an idea around what what a cricket shoe would look like and how that could enhance cricketers over in England. 6:06 And he did that for four or five years and I think was really was really successful with that, created the mark, created a brand over there. But there's something really interesting with, especially in UK, there's a lot of cricketers that also play golf. And David didn't have a golf background, didn't really have any any links to golf footwear. 6:27 So he actually reached out to Mike Forsey on LinkedIn and said, hey, I have this, I have Painter brand. It's just us cricket. We're really small, but we have this appetite to potentially do golf as well. And with that, David and Mike talked and said, you know, hey Mike, you can run the golf side. 6:45 I'll continue running the cricket side. And that's when I got involved and kind of again, rest is history from that. So yeah, we're, we're our roots from the, from the brand, the Painter brand side is, is rooted in the UK and, and Painter Golf is, is based here in, in Portland, OR with our headquarters. 7:04 And, and it's been an absolute wild ride over the last four years. We've been selling with, we've been around for four years, we've been selling product for three years and it's just been a a really great rocket ship over that time. That's incredible, Yeah. 7:20 Do you know, you said a lot of cricket players are naturally golfers. I had never made that correlation into those swings being somewhat similar at all. Yeah. Any, are you able to divulge David's handicap at all? Is he? 7:35 Is he, is he translated into a good golfer? Or is he? So he's not bad. I think cricket player. I, I, I think David and I are pretty similar. So Mike Forsey is an obnoxious scratch and you know, as the, as the elder statesman of the, the, the painter golf team, He, he, he lets us know that as well. 7:54 And he and he, you know, he can still hit a far ball too. So he's scratched. You know, David and I are, are non golfing. You know, we, we didn't do that as a coming up. So he's a cricketer myself and lacrosse be my my main sport. But we do all right. We're at we're, we're athletes where where, where we think of Mike Forsee as the golfer within the group. 8:12 And Mike's in Portland, right. He's yeah, Mike's, yeah, Mike's based in Portland and, and runs our, our center out through strategy and marketing and sales through that with the team there. And then I'm based in Boston that run our design center here. I was going to say being a scratch golfer in the PNW looks so different than a scratch golfer out here in the desert. 8:32 Yeah, that is true. You're pointing mud balls, you're hitting ball first, you're lift and replace. It's a whole different game essentially out there. Yeah, we, we definitely, yeah, MM, definitely wear tests are, are are waterproofing for sure over there, especially over here Lot a lot of screen golf from you in Boston right now. 8:50 Yeah. Awesome. Well, obviously we're super excited to have you on. We're going to have some burning questions because we do have someone who is an expert in the field. But before we jump into those, we're going to take a moment to thank today's sponsor, Deverau Golf. This episode of Must Play is brought to you by Deverau Golf and their brand new Spring 26 release dubbed the Westward Collection. 9:10 If your golf wardrobe needs a reset, then this is the time to act. The Western Collection brings clean SW inspired knit polos and lightweight layers that are going to work on the course, at the range or even wherever you're heading after your round. And don't sleep on the accessories either. Deborah's hats and leather head covers are some of the best round. 9:27 They're the kind that instantly upgrade any bag or outfit. Also their shirts. They feel incredible without feeling sloppy. And the socks are just all day comfortable, whether you're walking 18 or just walking your dog. It's a new season. It's time for a new direction. The Western collection from Devro golf over on devrogolf.com. 9:46 Use code fair wagers 20 to always get 20% off your orders. See out there. All right, Mike, so we have some burning footwear questions more specifically about golf. So we're going to hop into these. Just give us, you know, we just want to pick your brain and hear it from a, from a subject matter expert. 10:03 Jump into the first one here. So on our podcast, we've talked a handful of times about planning four day, three night golf trips with our buddies who are, let's be honest, in their 30s or even 40s. So for the sake of our bodies, what are the painter golf shoes that we need to be packing for these trips? 10:20 And should people be packing multiple pairs of the same shoe, different shoes? Like what do you think when it comes to packing footwear for golf trips? Yeah, great question. And so, you know, and we get asked this a lot and I, I kind of think back to myself too, is I think it, it all depends on, on like who you're playing with, how much money is involved. 10:42 Because it's a funny thing. You know, when I, if I'm just having fun with some buddies, no, yeah, I'll throw on our, our, our spike list, throw on, throw on our match day, which is our, our, our top of the line killer spike list shoe. But you know, if I'm really looking to hopefully take a couple bucks from the buddies, I'm going to throw some pants on. 10:58 I'm going to throw that 87 SC on, which is Jason Day signature shoe. That's our spiked model. That is kind of our tip of spear. That's a killer shoe. So those are probably 2 of my favorites. But also kind of depending on your style, we've got a, you know, we've got a killer moving day Gator, which Jason Moore at the Masters last year. 11:15 And that shoe was just totally blown up for us. It's a little bit more stylized with some cool Gator prints. So that's a huge one. And our whole new sport classic range, which is a really cool on the course, off the course kind of vibe. A little bit more pattern pieces, some all over Leathers great in the gorilla room after after a good nine, good 18. 11:35 So yeah, a couple couple good choices. But yeah, I'm all all about bringing a couple pairs of shoes depending on the outfits, depending who you're playing and and conditions obviously mean a lot as well. I have a question for you. We, we talk about superstitions quite a bit on this pod. And if you have a really good round in one of those pairs, are you running it back or are you alternating? 11:54 I love it. I love it. I'm running it back, I'm running it back, but I'm never, I'm never running in the back three times. Oh, OK. So you know, then it's then it's a little crazy. Then it's house money. But yeah, you, you play well. And you know, we, we try and get out to, with, with the company being based in Portland, we try and get out to abandon every year, just kind of recharge. 12:14 And so, you know, those can be some long 36 whole days. And so I'll typically I'll run it back if things are feeling good. But if you need to pivot, you know it's always good to have that spare in the bag as well. Yeah, for sure, for sure. The note about Bandon actually perfectly leads into this next question here, which is waterproof versus water resistant, which is definitely needed up in the Pacific Northwest. 12:36 But are there any sacrifices that you guys make when you're planning to make a shoe fully waterproof versus water resistant? And like does that design choice come in from the start? And like that, when you start building the shoe, is that how you're building it in mind or does that kind of develop as the time goes on? 12:53 Yeah, great question. So, so for Painter Golf, 95% of all of our shoes are fully waterproof. And so that's a conscious choice that we've made. You know, we are a premium brand if someones you know, going out paying 160 two, $100, we want to make sure that you have the you know, fully waterproof shoe. 13:10 So it's going to perform from the beginning to the end. Our only exceptions are are our full textile shoes. And so those are are very hard to create entirely waterproof without adding like extra layers on the top like plastic coatings. 13:27 So for us to compromise on the fit and the function by adding some of those to make it really rigid, we didn't want to do that. And so we offer some textile shoes that are great for summer, great for Arizona and those really climb weathers where where it's really dry. But we're really proud that that 95% of all of our shoes are fully waterproof because, you know, we know golf is a little game about inches. 13:49 And the minute your foot gets wet, that disassociation, the foot inside the shoe can move, can pivot if you're off by a couple degrees, especially on a drive. We we know how detrimental that can be. And so we're really proud that you know, that we offer that waterproof, you know, with virtually every shoe that we make. 14:08 And when we see it as, as a, as a huge, huge benefit from painter and, and having that confidence as a consumer to buy us when it comes to waterproofing, because you know, we look at kind of the hierarchy of what people look at when they purchase shoes. Comfort is king. 14:23 Comfort is #1 traction is number 2 and waterproofing is actually #3 and that's just, that's not just us, that's kind of all consumers that are looking at golf product. So huge, huge importance on all three of those, those kind of top buying. Is that? 14:40 Are those 3 excluding style or where the style fit in that? Yeah, style and design would be #4. Really. You guys see it all the way down at 4:00. Yeah. And so you know, there's there's, you know, we look at that those buying decisions that consumers are having, it's not just one they're looking to making sure it clicks all four of those boxes. 15:01 But especially with us being a very premium brand, you know, we're really designing products as equipment versus as footwear. I think that's where we found some really great white spice and some traction is. I think the consumers feel when they're putting a painter shoe on, they're going to be able to perform better than they were in something else. 15:18 And so, but no, of course, I mean style is super important, but all of those non negotiables where traction, waterproofing, comfort, like those are king and styles right up there as well. I mean those top 4 then it's color and materials and leather is synthetic. 15:36 Those are definitely a lot lower on the list. Well, I think it's funny to say that because your order is my order. I I 100% agree with you. B JS order is a little different and I don't want to blow him up here, but he collects shoes like trophies, like he's got a closet full off camera here. 15:54 Yeah, yeah, yeah, we got it. I got a buy one or two pairs for as long as I can until they're ruined kind of guy, because my priorities are what you described. I want function #1 like I am trying to go out there and shoot a score. That's that's like my MO with shoes. 16:10 If I feel more traction, more comfort, etcetera. Style for me is like probably #4 I don't want to speak for TJ, but I know he is more of a shoe guy than I am. So he's got more of an eye for sometimes those little things that I might glance over because I'm just about what's this going to do to me on the course. 16:27 Yeah, sure. Yeah, I mean, I might have. I probably skew the other way because my game can only get so good, and I can only care so much about shooting a good score, because a good score for me is in the low 90s, right? So I have to care at least about how I look. 16:43 It's. The only way I can sometimes bring myself up when I am shooting in the hundreds is at the end of the day I can say at least I looked good and had fun with my friends today. Oh, and hugely, hugely important and I think you're going to you're seeing too is kind of when we started painter golf, we had one shoe. And so those non negotiables like that was important. 17:00 Like we're gonna own traction, we're gonna own comfort, we're gonna own waterproofing and we're gonna make sure a shoe looks good. And now as we've grown and guys like Jason, we obviously know like Jason has kind of reinvented what style looks like on the course, especially from what he was wearing before to, to how he looks now. 17:19 And so we have these, these designated buckets where our it's, you know, it's very performance based. Then it's very classic looking. And now we have this whole sport line that kind of falls in between which we call reserve. And so we have these kind of cool buckets that that caters to everyone. 17:36 And so we, we have a whole section where style is super, super important. I would almost slide this up here. We have non negotiables. Our shoes will always fit, always will be comfortable. The traction will always be top of the here. We have repulsion plate and everything. Those are always going to be there. But then, yeah, we've definitely been a lot more conscious on certain products that are a little bit more stylized, have a little bit more of that lifestyle vibe, material choices that we make, a little bit more color and some of the performance stuff. 18:00 And so, yeah, we're kind of, you know, we're, we're kind of we're, we're, we're notching a lot of those different wants from a lot of different consumers. And I think that's why we're on this really great rise right now because there's a, there's a little bit for everyone and there isn't there. We, we haven't found a golfer that comes to us, comes to our site and it's like, I just can't find anything for me. 18:19 There's a little bit for everyone. Yeah. Cool cool cool. So Speaking of, you know, different shoes for different scenarios and what people are looking for. Question came up, should we be practicing in the same shoes that we plan on playing on if we're hitting off of mats? 18:37 Like do we need to be potentially saving the mileage on our nicer shoes for just our rounds and grass ranges or do we Do we for sure need to wear nice spiked shoes when we're practicing off of mats? Great, great question. And I go back to a a funny story that actually when I was at Under Armour and was was meeting Maverick Mcneely for the first time and we were talking about that exactly. 19:02 And, and he said, so at his time, he would go play mini golf with his girlfriend and he would put on his golf shoes because no matter what he did, he always wanted it to feel like he was he was, you know, he was doing his job and his craft. 19:19 And so as a young designer, hearing that from Mav, I thought that was great. And so, yeah, I think it all depends. But I think if it's something that that's really looking to, to for game enhancement and games game engagement, then absolutely like it it of course, the conditions on a mat is very consistent, but making sure that your footwork's correct and making sure that you still, you still can dig into, oh, you know, maybe you're not going to Top Golf to put on cleats. 19:47 But other than that, like if you're, if you're grinding on the mat on the range, then then yeah, I think absolutely it can only help. Yeah, I'm I'm a huge you practice like you play type guy. So be knowing how my foot feels in that shoe versus like, you know, whether I'm wearing a different kicking around shoe or even something that's like spike less. 20:08 And I usually play in something that's spiked, like that little weird tweaked feeling of how my shoe feels in the middle of a swing and where my pressure is changes from spiked to. Spikeless. So I think I'm, I'm in the camp of doing that, but I, we at least had to ask the question, you know? You know, it's a good question and especially like if you think of a running shoe. 20:28 So a running shoe is everything is, is kind of vertical. And so, but it doesn't have that lateral side support and golf, it's so important. So, so that rollover, you know, if you're not wearing a golf shoe, if you're not wearing a shoe like a training shoe that that has some support, you know, you start to really feel that and it kind of, it can slightly affect that transition that you have, especially as a right-handed golfer on that lead foot on the left. 20:51 And, and you know, even it's fun like. So we work with a lot of kind of foot scientists and foot doctors and one of the first things that they do is they always have their, their new clients golf barefoot like #1 that's the first thing. 21:07 And just to start to see what the foot does during swing, you know that the barefoot is the most vulnerable way. You clearly don't have much traction, you have no support. But it's really important to see what the foot does. And then once once they start to understand what the foot does, then they put on footwear that's going to cater to that. 21:24 And so a lot of the science that we've seen is based on seeing what the foot does totally barefoot and then understanding how our footwear can enhance that because we don't want to restrict the, the foot. That's a huge misconception that people have is that shoes should be so tight that should be locked down. 21:41 They should keep you locked in place. But if your footwork isn't working naturally, then you know that then you don't have that really, you know that that kind of perfect swing that should help. They're, they're not every, everything's not working in conjunction with each other. And so having, making sure that the shoe is working really naturally with your foot is super important. 21:59 And that's how we kind of design and develop our product. Yeah, I love that. And then lastly here for our Burning Questions. This question came from one of our followers in our The Turn broadcast channel over on Instagram. They asked how often should somebody be replacing the spikes on their shoes and why don't golf shoes just come with a second set of replacement spikes? 22:20 Another another good question. I I should I put my owner of a footwear company hat on? Yeah. It's it's funny, 'cause I was like, 'cause money, but sure. Like it like. No, so, so great question. And so one of the one of the big benefits and I think that that there's a correlation question to that about spike and spikeless as well. 22:42 And so obviously the benefit of a spiked golf shoe is the fact that you can change out that spike in that receptacle. And, and typically in spike golf shoes, those spikes are what is making contact with the ground first. They're the longest and it's making contact for the ground first. And those points are wearing quickly or, or fast, typically faster than the secondary lugs. 23:03 And so, yeah, I think it, again, it's personal preference, but it's, it's something that's pretty noticeable when you start to see those secondary, you know, those lugs wearing down those, then it's always good to replace place your spikes. And if you, if you ask a tour guide, they're replacing their spikes every 3 rounds. 23:23 If, if you, if you ask a, you know, a layman, that's that, that that's out there golfing on the weekends. You know, it's once or twice a year. But yeah, so it's, it's pretty incredible what the tour guys do. We're super close with, with the team of Saucepike and man, they've got a full time job replacing all those cleats, you know, every other tournament, every 33 tournaments or so. 23:44 So, yeah. So that's a kind of a, it's a, it's a bit of a roundabout way to answer a question, but yeah, you just, you don't want it to, to run off because again, traction for us is really important and we want it as enhanced as possible. So make once you start to see somewhere and just depending on how much you play, you know, maybe it's every 20 rounds, you know, is typically a good place to start. 24:08 OK. That's I, I like that. I think that's, I think that's appropriate for most people. Like you said, I think that's for a lot of people that's once or twice a year. Yeah. And I think with with, with spike less, with spike less is, is something that we're really proud about. When you, when you flip over our bottoms, the traction is virtually identical between our spike product and our spike less. 24:29 It's just the on our spike products. We, we've, we've, you know you have your spike and with the spike less we've replaced where those spikes are with secondary traction. And and for us, you see a lot of lot of our competition up there. The spikeless product is typically rubber and rubber wears a lot faster, it's a lot heavier, but wears a lot faster than TPU. 24:49 And so us all of our spike product is all TPU. TPU wears a lot, it's a lot lighter, which is great, but it also wears a lot better than rubber does. And, and I think the, the biggest area of where, where traction, you know, it wears the most is just honestly to and from it's in the parking lot, it's, it's walking on the car pass. 25:10 You know, that that interaction on hard surfaces, that's where you get most of your, your wear and tear. That's what I was going to say is that I remember like back when metal spikes were even a thing, by the way, I missed the sound of metal spikes. That's like a that's like ASMR thing right there. 25:27 That's the best. Yeah. But like walking on the soft spikes on the parking lot, the cart path and everything else for a long time with a couple buddies that are like really good golfers, they would just carry their shoes essentially right in in their bag. And the second they got to the range or wherever they would put them on. 25:45 And I don't think I ever noticed how much longer theirs were lasting in mind. But I just remember always having issues and they didn't as much. And I put it together finally. I was like, this does kill the spikes pretty fast. No, it can crush, it can crush them and even just you're in a cart and dragging your feet in the cart can wear it and just that normal, you know, even in the sand or you know, if you're if you're not in that perfectly plush fairway, then you know, all those different conditions can wear it. 26:11 And honestly, when once that once those cleats start to wear, it actually can can start to affect your traction as well. And so right, you know, if if we're out there trying to get our best score, you know, get the best next shot, making sure your traction still is is robust and not to worn is is best. 26:27 Yeah. Yeah. All right, so let's talk about those guys who are replacing them every three rounds that that current roster of athletes that you guys have going on. So last year, huge splash with the addition of Jason Day and then last month announcing 3 new athletes in Min MU Li, Sam Burns and Isaiah Selinda. 26:45 How are these guys shaping the next evolution of the footwear lineup for painter like who's very hands on to work with? Like if you could distill one of them into each of them into a gosh, I'm losing the word right now, but what's the thing that they put in like the yearbook for like best dressed and. 27:04 Superlatives. Superlatives, yes. If you could give us like a superlative for each of the different 4 athletes that you guys work with, what would those be? I like it. I like that. So I will so thank you. Yes, it's been a it's been a pretty incredible last three or four months. 27:25 I will tease that to discerning eyes potentially this week at at Pebble. There's there's there's quite a bit more painter golf out there, which is fun. It's exciting, but stick. Is that stuff that's been in the works or is this starting to come? 27:43 Because you're starting to see guys like Justin Rose winning in the shoes and he's technically not even an athlete on the roster. Yeah, all of the above to be honest. So. It is a, it's a tight fraternity for sure. And you know, I think we've got a cool mark. 28:01 We've got, we've got some great style, we've got some really good designs. We've got some great champions of our product too. But so yeah, it is pretty wild the amount of of people, it's 10 plus people that all have painter golf products right now on tour that are testing it that are not, not part of that core group of guys, right, which is fun. 28:24 But but back to the superlatives. I love that. And I think, you know, one of the things that that we're really proud of is we haven't yet to reach out to a single golfer. All of this is them golfers, you know, an agent or them through a friend coming to us and say, Hey, I'd love to try out what you guys are doing. 28:47 And so to us, that is that that's there's a validation there for sure. And then the fact that they stick with us and, and what that relationship going forward looks like, it is awesome. And, and I think for US, one of the things and one of the appeals is Mike and I, we've worked at every big brand imaginable between Nike, Under Armour, Reebok, foot Joy, literally every big brand in the golf space. 29:11 And so we know that slog of, of from as designer pen hits paper, 18 months later, the shoe arrives. Painter golf. We operate in about 8 months. And that is, you know, we're, we're lean. 29:29 We don't compromise on the testing part of it. We don't compromise on all the important stuff. Where we do, we can make decisions really quickly. And what that has benefited us is we almost create product in real time and we allow our athletes to test that product in real time. 29:46 And we also don't hide it. We're proud of, we're proud of what we're doing. We're proud to give Jason Day a prototype shoe. He comes to me, can I wear this? I said absolutely. He's like, do we want people to see that I'm wearing it? Do they we, we want people to see them wearing a prototype. I said, absolutely. 30:02 We have nothing to hide. Our technology is, is, is top of line. Our innovation is top of line. And we're not afraid to show it. And we want that experience of testing and we're testing product. We want the consumers to be able to see that because we're proud of that. And so I think when we talk back to Superla's, Jason kind of epitomizes that athlete who I I go back to. 30:26 When Mike and I first met Jason, we met him at Pebble in this tiny little room. I think his agent gave us 15 minutes. Painter golf. Who's painter golf? But you know, we've been in the industry. So we got the call and Jason was with us for an hour and a half. He called about 10 minutes later once he left and he said, I think I just went to shoe school. 30:45 Like that was that was unbelievable. And he's like, I never thought I wanted to design A shoe. I never thought that that was something that would really interest me. Now him and I talk literally every two or three days, non tournament time play about anything from a, from a paint treatment he saw on, on a car or Ellie's cool handbag that he got with a Gator print. 31:10 And, and could we make a shoe out of that or a, you know, a French slipper that he's wearing that has a really cool treatment or pattern or print. And so it's it's really fun to kind of use these guys as our muse on to create product in real time, to test product in real time, to validate that product with the best players in the world. 31:31 And it gives the confidence that consumers that are buying painter golf, it was worn and tested by the best players in the world to get to a point. Well, when you go to Dick's Sporting Goods or Galaxy or PGA Tour Superstore, you're getting a shoe that our guys have worn and tested over and over and over again. 31:48 And so have that confidence that you're buying something that's totally killer. And enhancing so Jason's great and same with men. So, so been working with men for almost a year. And what's really unique about that is, you know, like every athlete has different foot shapes. 32:07 They all have different wants and and a painter we don't make for our guys. Like we don't simply just take a stock shoe. There's things that we do to it, just that that can cater and fit perfectly to them. And so, so we, you know, Min has a unique sized foot on a unique shaped foot. 32:23 And so everything that we did, we really wanted it to fit him perfectly. And, and from his style, from his look to a little bit, even when you hold up his shoe versus Jason's shoe, it's a little bit more dress shoe, it's a little bit more pointed. You know, I think unanimously the number one thing for, for golfers is, is sure, how's the shoe look on the side is good. 32:44 But man, all I do is look down at my shoe and you want this idea of 0 distractions. You don't want this shoe to be like, ah, you're like, I can't even see the ball because I'm just staring at the toe of my shoe or, or material of the shoe. And so, so that was really, really important to men is what does the shoe look like when I'm looking down at my feet, especially at putting and, and do I feel comfortable again, We talked about like 0 distractions. 33:07 We don't want. The best thing for us is, is our guys to say, hey, I didn't feel the shoes. I didn't think about the shoes. I can just concentrate on golf because there's so many things that can go wrong with that. So we don't, we want them focusing on that. So so men's been great with that. Sam's with Sam Burns. 33:22 You know, our relationship has just started, but it's really cool to kind of hear his likes and and what he's looking for his product and and Isaiah the same way like the the kids got style. And so we're doing some really fun things with him and and you're going to see across the board at at big tournaments at majors. 33:40 All of those guys are getting unique things from kind of player L ES to to some really cool stuff, even what we did with Rosie at Ryder Cup. And so yeah, there's some wild stuff coming, but all of them are are just are deeply in a part of the process. 33:56 And I think it, you know, it's a benefit to to us and to them to to be able to put their own stamp on things. And so it feels real, authentic and real to them. And it's just a really cool way that they can, you know, show their their style and expression, but it's still rooted in in all of our cool storytelling and tech and innovation. 34:15 It's funny that you talk about like player editions and stuff like that because I traditionally have been like a basketball footwear guy for. Years. And like Jordan's done that for years, like dating back to like the late 90s where it's like, oh, like players had limited edition versions that only they could get. 34:35 And it's funny that it took. Golf. God, you know, 20 plus years to lean into the idea of scarcity and limited editions for players and models for the public to actually realize like, oh, people will spend top dollar to get these and there's a whole secondary market. 34:52 But it's cool to see that you guys are leaning into that this year and going to give each of these guys some of their own individual models that people will obviously create more marketing around and more excitement around for the brand as well. Yeah, for sure. And and one of the really important things for us was, was, hey, we're creating these kind of one of one type shoes for our guys. 35:13 But man, the amount of the chatter that we get for like, oh, I wish, I wish I could buy that. And so you're gonna see stuff that that both men and a little teaser that men and Jason are gonna wear at Augusta that that that day you'll be able to buy on paintergolf.com. 35:29 So that and it really it, it even started with with our Gator that Jason wore on Thursday to Gus the last year. And you know, that was just a fun thing that we did with him and that shoe just blew up. And, and when I talk about like close to market is we are able to deliver that shoe six months later from when he wore it to the mass appeal. 35:50 But we're like, man, how cool would that be if if we we have this really cool groundswell over something that someone sees Jason wearing in a big event or men wearing and you could buy it then. And so because we can react really quickly because we can kind of business playing around a lot faster than the large tankers that these big brands are, we can deliver kind of product in real time to consumers that that see something cool that they want. 36:12 And so we're not slowing down with that. I think I I think last time I looked, I think we had done 26 different L ES for Jason last year and they're and they're you're texting you all the time. I'm I'm sticking in my I'm sitting in my studio now and I've got a box and he's like, man, when do I get new stuff? 36:32 I'm like, I'm not sending it to you because the minute I send you things, you put it in play, just like last year. You think last year at Pebble when he when he did the lost luggage with Malba on the head to toe sweat suit, he was wearing the mid. He was not supposed to wear that. That was like a he snuck it into his bag. 36:49 He it was a perfect outfit. Everything about it was perfect. So now I've learned that no matter what, if I send him something, I have to know that it's going to be put in play. So I've got a big, I've got an entire part of my studio over here that it's Jason Day that I'm not sending yet. Yeah, that's. 37:05 Funny. OK, so while we're still on the topic of talking about what these guys wear on tour, golf consumers in general are willing to just buy clubs for manufacturers solely based upon what the pros are playing. Everybody wants the newest driver that you know Jason's hitting or that Scotty Chef are hitting and what not. 37:25 Do you guys see that a lot in footwear as well? Like are you guys seeking tour validation for the shoes or are you guys designing shoes geared towards a specific audience that is a more general consumer but it also happens to suit tour level players as well? 37:41 I think first and foremost, I think when Mike and I kind of sat down and put like this ethos, like what's painter golf about, the number one thing is we will give the consumer a competitive advantage no matter what we're doing. It could be, it could be a sock, headwear, golf gloves, anything, no matter what consumer, you know, is, is that consumers getting a competitive advantage from painter golf that was tried and true no matter what, that's what we're going to do. 38:05 So everything we do, we feel we have a competitive advantage there. And there's there's obviously things that we do at that top of spirit that kind of that the highest level of product that we do. We use carbon fiber versus our nylon six with our propulsion plate. So we do have some tearing within that, but it's all rooted in tech. 38:24 It's all rooted in innovation. So it's hugely important and that's not going away for us. I mean we don't play at that big volume lower under 100 and dollar golf shoe $130.00 is the cheapest golf shoe that we make and that's not cheap. That is still super premium and it's still, you know filled with technology and going to give you that, you know an advantage. 38:44 And since some of those places like that's where we can introduce some more color and have a little bit more fun there with materials. But no, it's that that consumers competitive advantage like that was that is #1 the most important. So we wanted to make sure that that doesn't change. And that's, that's not changing. 39:00 We're not going to play in that lower end where we could push a ton of volume. It's just it's not worth us. We're a premium brand and we're going to stay with that on that, on that price point. It always makes me laugh when someone's not willing to pay 30-40 bucks more for something they're going to wear for X amount of rounds, but they are willing to go pay for a nicer golf ball they're going to lose probably the next round. 39:21 Very very fair. I think golf balls is the. I mean, it obviously makes a huge difference at certain levels, but for the most of us, those middle or Rd. golf balls are maybe not a pinnacle, But other than that, I think they're all pretty good. You're just going to get so much more return out of the footwear than you have the the sleeve, right. 39:37 And so it's OK to play a nicer ball, but like, if you're going to do that, pony up some of the money to make sure that one of the most important parts of your game and the only part of your body touching the ground, it's taken care of as well. Yeah, the minute, the minute the footwear is off, the angle is off. 39:53 Like doesn't matter how good your $1000 driver is if you're not, if you're not grounded, if you're not using those ground forces, if you're not not leveraging all of those things that that good footwear has. I mean, we've all seen it. I mean, especially you watch how many times you watch the open over there in bad conditions and seeing little slips and things happen like. 40:14 Yeah, if if you got you know, traction is is so, so important. So or the weather at Pebble this week looks I know I saw yesterday, I think I think I saw Tommy Fleetwood hit a hit a driver off off 6 and you know it hit in 130 yards. 40:31 It's crazy. Yeah. I just I watched Akshay hit a weird flop mini driver on 7. I saw that too, yeah. That's a that's what, like a 10 club wind? Yeah, double digit club Winder. Those are tough. Yeah. 40:47 All right. So let's talk about what's coming next for Painter, kind of the evolution. I think the biggest news that you guys have even somewhat going on announced last week is 8:00 AM golf purchasing an equity stake in Painter. And I know some companies are looking for partners who can just open doors for them. 41:05 Some are looking for other things. How do you guys see the partnership in the equity stake with 8:00 AM working in the future for you guys? Yeah, they've been, they've been incredible. And I think what's exciting with them and us is I think we're very like minded and they know, they know that we're the experts when it comes to Foer and nothing there is going to change. 41:26 They finished our Class B raise, which is huge for us. And, and yeah, they're just, they're, they're, it's this wealth of, of golf knowledge and golf enthusiasts and the team, the creative team that they have there. It's just going to just help us, you know, continue to expand globally and, and really tap into some really cool, fun projects with people with teammates that that are on their team on the creative side. 41:51 And so it's just a really cool marriage. And you know, we, we, we get, we get offers and people come to us all the time with things like that. And so just like our collaborations that we're doing, we have, we have 6 collaborations that we're launching in 26. 42:06 Some of them are known, some of them are not known yet. But you know, for everyone we accept, we turn down 10. And so just like with 8:00 AM coming on board and being an incredible resource for us, same with our collaborations, making sure it makes sense for them, for us, for both brands to continue what we're doing and, and get it, get our product on more people's feet, help them, you know, play better, look better. 42:32 So it's, yeah, it's been been awesome. And they're, they're an incredible group, really successful guys over there. And so, yeah, it's just, it's, it's going to be, it's, it's, it's been fun and it's going to continue to, to kind of open doors across the board. And, and us being their, you know, their, their first footwear brand is, is, is huge for, for them as well. 42:51 Yeah, jumping into the footwear, I know we've got a new line of shoes and new products dropping in March. What type of problems are you guys looking to solve with this new line of shoes that you guys haven't solved in the past? So I mentioned it briefly before, but when we started Painter golf, we were playing in this kind of performance silo, the sport performance silo. 43:12 Our OO one was rude in tech, you know, had all those cool features and benefits, but it was playing in sports. We had this bucket called performance, you know, sport performance. And then when Jason Day came on board, we created this whole new silo called classic and so classic sport. 43:28 So we've got this performance sport, we've got this classic sport, but we thought there was a lot of little kind of Gray area in the middle. And we call it our reserve line. And so the reserve line, it kind of teeters between both of those, but also that's where we put all of our collaborations as well. So within that reserve line, kind of the flagship, what men's wearing now is our reserve tour. 43:49 It's just it's a killer shoe. It it, it has some nods to kind of tradition and heritage. It's really clean. But also it's it's you know, it's rooted in all that tech. We can bring some more color. We have some really cool models that price points are a little less in both spiked and spiked less. 44:08 It's where we're over indexing on women as well, where we have some just killer women's shoes and we don't simply shrink it and pink it. It's it's we, we use the old, we use our own midsoles for, for, for women, you know, think the female golfer is, is lighter. So you don't need that same hard foams or propulsion plate can be a little softer, but still offer that energy return. 44:28 So yeah, this whole new reserve collection that we have is really cool and it kind of blends that blends the the best of both worlds. And and again, we talked about how making sure that there's something for for everyone, it's a perfect spot and and we're really, really proud of that. 44:45 And I think the initial feedback we we launched A minshew the reserve tour at the PGA show. We had a big event, 300 people at Top Golf with media and influencers and it was just was an awesome time to kind of to to highlight our players coming on board and this whole new line that that we were launching and, and again and then the collaborations that kind of fall under that. 45:06 It's just as a really cool new silo, a product that kind of helps to show our depth and everything kind of new and special that we're doing. As a person who was at the event and has has got my hands on a pair of them, they are phenomenal. They are cool. I think I think a lot of people have seen what your guys's lasts and the sizes of your shoes look like previously. 45:26 But I think this is something that's a little bit different, a little bit more served for, for lack of a better term, the more traditional footwear. I think it's, I think it's a more classic look that people are kind of looking towards, hence the naming of it. So I think it'd be really exciting to see who's going to adopt this and and decide to start wearing these now. 45:45 Yeah, no, it's, you know, yeah, you're spot on. And yeah, it's, it's, it's kind of a fun it's and it's a fun place. And we, you probably you got a little snapshot of what our kind of reserve I sell and the reserve Rs, which is a spike to spike this version where we can kind of it's this traditional silhouette, but we bring in some neons, we bring in some color. 46:05 So it's just kind of really cool, like old school meets all of our tech, but then amplified with, with fun color. So yeah, we're we're really proud of it. And it's going to be a, a massive play not even in not only in in North America, but our partners in, in Korea and Japan in Southeast Asia are, are kind of going wild for it as well. 46:24 And so some some great global appeal there. Love it. Love it sounds like nothing but big things this year for Painter. So we were super excited to have you on talk about this. But we want to close out with one last little segment here. We're going to hit you with a little rapid fire overrated, underrated on golf footwear technology or I guess trends. 46:48 So you can either hit me with a is it overrated, underrated or properly rated? And probably a quick snippet as to why you think that. OK, I'm ready. I'm ready. The first one, Ultra soft cushioning. Ultra soft cushioning is hugely overrated. 47:06 And. And so again, we're coming from the lens of a performance golf company. Super soft cushioning is amazing for walking the course. And so that's important. But again, from painter golf delivering enhancing products during the swing when when it's, you know, think of walking in the sand. 47:26 And so if you're trying to push into sand, that's soft, very comfortable, but that energy return, that engagement from the ground up into your body is, you know, you, you lose, you lose power, that energy losing power, losing energy will cost distance. 47:43 And so although very comfortable and absolutely a huge fan of that, having a foam that balances comfort and performance is key. And, and that's exactly why we developed our nitrogen plus foam. So it's very, very soft walking, but the minute that foam is engaged to become hard and rigid and thus helping you leverage ground. 48:03 So although great comfort, comfort check. Yeah, IA bit overrated. I love it. I know not a bit. You said hugely overrated, and I want you to say to it. I love that. I'll stick with it. I'll stick with it. Hugely overrated. All right now, sandals. Sandals on other sands. OK, the next one here, Kilties. 48:24 Kilties. Interesting. I can get in trouble for some of this. So slightly overrated. I'm a fan. I think kilties are cool and coming from designing baseball product for for almost 20 years I loved putting kilties on very cool modern baseball shoes as a designer, so I was a big fan of that. 48:44 But in golf I think right place right time. How about that? For sure. All right, the a break in period for shoes. Hugely underrated and I think how many times have unbroken in golf footwear like crippled around and I think, you know, instantly. 49:11 And so we are very proud of the fact that we have we have very little to no break in period for us. That is by per by intention and purpose. We don't need you to walk your, you know, walk around in your shoes, you know, five hours that night before a boys trip, you know, going to somewhere walk in Bandon for, you know, 36 a day. 49:33 So so I think it's hugely important. I think it a lot has to do with the type of shoe, the type of product, leather, synthetic, but just making sure that those shoes don't cause those those red spots, the hot spots, the blisters is is something that's super important to us. 49:49 And so got it, you know, look good, play good, but you got to have comfortable footwear. Shout out, shout out to a recurring guest on his pod Jones. He is one of the guys that wears his golf shoes before the trip under his desk. I get it. I get it after the trip. I was one of those guys. 50:06 I was one of those guys for sure. It's like a good pair of of, you know, you throw on some some Gucci's or some fancy dress shoes too. You can't be on the dance floor with with things that are going to break your feet. You got to wear them around the house a little bit. All right, the next one Boa lacing systems. 50:24 Very interesting. So I will be neutral here. And so we have a ton of products especially for our, for our markets in Japan and Korea. I have worked with lacing systems in every sport for my entire career. 50:42 I, I'm a, I'm a big fan for the right person and for the right type of individual and what they're looking for in their footwear eye and, and science that and work that we've done. It's very hard to get, you know, and, and Boa is the company. 50:59 So, so just system lacing, it's very hard to get those shoes really tight, to be perfectly honest. And so they are great for ease of entry. They are great for popping on and off. They're great for kind of changing the dial system, but as a, as a purist, you know, nothing beats the ability to lace the shoe up exactly how you want it. 51:21 If it's harder in the bottom, but was really great for consistent lacing throughout. But you really it's, it's, it's tricky if you only have one dial to tune that. So I think huge, huge benefits depending on the individual. Extremely popular over in Japan and Korea for us. 51:36 We have 27 painter golf shoes with, with just system lacing, which which, and we sell one on our on our website in, in our painter golf.com in North America. One shoe, one for women, sorry, one for women's, one for men's. And we have almost 3030 shoes that have it for our for our markets over in Japan and Korea. 51:55 So, so it's super cool. It's super cool. Again, totally, totally taste. I know golfers that barely tie their shoes and I know guys that will tie them as tight as possible and we'll go through multiple laces. So, but yeah, so I think right in the middle, I, I think it's a really. 52:11 Close rated. Yep, it's a really cool tech that that some people love and, and and it, and it can help, but you know, it's, it's not for everyone. Awesome. And then the last one here, leather automatically equaling premium in golf. 52:26 Shoes. If you were to tell, if you were asked me this 10 years ago, I would say absolutely. But the innovation that's happened in synthetic leather has been pretty incredible over the last, you know, 10 years or so, especially over the last five years. 52:44 But that there's huge, huge benefits of both. So a, so a really high end microfiber synthetic which we use on Jason Day's shoe is top of the line. That could be what it what it doesn't have that leather does is leather. 53:01 Leather stretches and leather will morph to your foot really nicely, But a synthetic leather shoe won't stretch as much, which is in a lot of cases a good thing that you don't have that shoe. You can either either have a leather shoe that will kind of start to conform and shape to your foot or you have a material that really keeps you locked in and feels consistent. 53:22 But, but again, there's huge benefits of the leather when it comes to shaping of your foot and, and, and, and that leather hand feel and just that perception of performance and that smell. I mean, nothing beats a leather golf shoe when it comes to the smell and you touch and, and you touch. 53:38 And that's why we have about 35% of our shoes are leather to, to 65 to almost 70 that are synthetic leather. And so both have, you know, both, both have equal benefits and both can be be be set up as waterproof. But yeah, there's, you know, there's something to be said about that beautifully crafted leather golf shoe that feels really pinnacle. 54:00 And, and you see a lot of our more of our, our classic and, and high end kind of traditional golf shoes that that have come out, that will be coming out that are playing in leather and maybe some of our a little bit more sporty products. It is more based on that synthetic leather. 54:18 So, so there's a place in golf for both of those. 100% absolutely. Awesome, awesome. All right. Well, that wraps it up for that overrated, underrated segment. Mike, I want to thank you so much for hopping on with us today. Obviously, some huge things coming for Painter this year. 54:35 Obviously some Nuggets that you dropped along the way that we're going to be really excited to pay attention very closely to some some moments throughout the year that we'll obviously be be looking forwards to. But yeah, just wanted to thank you again for hopping on. Any closing words for the people at home? Anything you want to get out while while we still have the, you know, the podcast. 54:53 Recording yeah, no, no, no first thanks you guys. I'm a huge fan of you guys and I love what you do and, and great content. So it's just fun to to to chop it up for this last hour. And yeah, for anyone that doesn't know us, you know, we're, we're on a little bit of a rocket ship now and so go give us a shot. 55:10 We, we talk about it's really easy to get someone to buy something once, but to get someone to come out and do it over and over again. That's, that's what we're the most proud of. And so I think, I think we can, we can sit here and then the minute you put some painter product on, I, I think you're, you're going to, you know, head to, you know, head to head to the closet with the, that other golf footwear And and we feel strongly about that and we're proud of that. 55:34 Know what we put into it? It's it's worn by the best players in the world. It's tested by the best players in the world. We got a ton of experience doing that and and we're we're yeah, we're just kind of getting started. So I appreciate it guys. Thank you. You heard of your folks? 55:49 Strap in, painter. Golf to the moon, guys. Thank you so much. I'll talk to you next time. OK. Cheers guys.